Not everyone thinks cave diving is the pinnacle of SCUBA!

[HIGHwing]

I think what Highwing was making a point of is that's it's damn near impossible to fail a PADI class. And that's a problem. If it was possible and a few people did, especially at the higher levels, there might be more respect for this activity.

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Exactly.

I do not have any students or work with any one as a professional. 99% of my dives are with friends that I trust will stay with me in the open water or divers of equal training. I have never failed a class and do have some technical training but not any tech certification. I took an AAUS class that taught me how to use doubles, full face mask, side mount, etc but not to the point that I am comfortable diving with it- just familiar enough with it that I could use it in a pool a few times.

There are perspectives to every drama though. Above we see a Christmas Miracle, and just last weekend I chased two OW divers out of Devil's Eye. The two divers went in visually and did a visual jump to the Catacombs - good luck with that trick unless you know how to get out. It's not like people don't know better by now, they're just selfish and disrepectful to their family, friends, loved ones, cave divers, land owners, heirs, and children (as appliciable). At a certain point cave divers are entitled to fatigue from disrespectful behavior of untrained divers just as you have become fatigued by the cave diving attitude in return. I guess the difference is you're kinda in Cave Country, so...

Based upon your DM comment, I apparently incorrectly assumed you were using the card in a traditional fashion. Absent the technical diving experiences you've shared, we've established your personal skill level really is "peaked" (using your term) at the Rescue Diver level (presentation-quality OW skills in the DM course do not really add personal enrichment as it pertains to the overhead environment) and that might be the genesis of your issue. I can see how getting tagged as an "Open Water Diver" at Ginnie Springs, and not being allowed to dive Peacock at the Wes Skiles State park is a bummer considering your dive professional qualification.

I really think if you attempted the training, you'd see we're a nice bunch of folks who are perhaps a bit jaded by untrained people doing it wrong and dying in our favorite places. Though you might not respect the cave diving as the pinnacle of diving (and perhaps it isn't), it does happen to be cave divers who are called upon to drag the bodies out.


As a final thought, we each have to choose our own destiny. If yours doesn't include cave diving - that's fine. As has been said before, define your own pinnacle, set a goal, and go get it.

 

[fnfalman]

Exactly.




There are perspectives to every drama though. Above we see a Christmas Miracle, and just last weekend I chased two OW divers out of Devil's Eye. The two divers went in visually and did a visual jump to the Catacombs - good luck with that trick unless you know how to get out. It's not like people don't know better by now, they're just selfish and disrepectful to their family, friends, loved ones, cave divers, land owners, heirs, and children (as appliciable). At a certain point cave divers are entitled to fatigue from disrespectful behavior of untrained divers just as you have become fatigued by the cave diving attitude in return. I guess the difference is you're kinda in Cave Country, so...

Based upon your DM comment, I apparently incorrectly assumed you were using the card in a traditional fashion. Absent the technical diving experiences you've shared, we've established your personal skill level really is "peaked" (using your term) at the Rescue Diver level (presentation-quality OW skills in the DM course do not really add personal enrichment as it pertains to the overhead environment) and that might be the genesis of your issue. I can see how getting tagged as an "Open Water Diver" at Ginnie Springs, and not being allowed to dive Peacock at the Wes Skiles State park is a bummer considering your dive professional qualification.

I really think if you attempted the training, you'd see we're a nice bunch of folks who are perhaps a bit jaded by untrained people doing it wrong and dying in our favorite places. Though you might not respect the cave diving as the pinnacle of diving (and perhaps it isn't), it does happen to be cave divers who are called upon to drag the bodies out.


As a final thought, we each have to choose our own destiny. If yours doesn't include cave diving - that's fine. As has been said before, define your own pinnacle, set a goal, and go get it.

You sound like the beach bum surfer bullies who think that the coasts are for them only.

So what if the other divers are untrained? Where does it say that you're responsible for their safety? Where does it say that the caves/caverns belong to you?

You dive your dive and they dive their dives. Hell, even you cave divers get killed with all your fancy trainings and equipment. Diving is DANGEROUS. If people know about the danger but decide to be deliberately ignorant, so what? It's their lives, not yours.

If somebody were to manhandle or chase me underwater, they'd get introduced to a nice, sharp, pointy thing.

 

[TSandM]

fnfalman, it sounds as though you haven't read many of the threads about cave diving deaths.

In addition to the horrendous pain it causes families, and the risk a death poses to the recovery divers who retrieve the bodies, a cave diving fatality poses a risk for ALL of us who like to dive in caves: Landowners, whether private or State, do not like people dying on their property. If it happens often enough, it's easy to make the decision that the income or other benefit gained from permitting cave diving is heavily outweighed by the risk of lawsuits and financial loss from deaths. Then access to the caves for diving is lost.

We are pretty merciless to our own (trained cave divers) who make mistakes that cause accidents.

If I saw people who were clearly OW divers (the snorkels are a dead giveaway) heading into cavern/cave, I would escort them out. I am not confrontational in general, and am a great believer in individual responsibility. But I'd try to stop someone headed the wrong way down a freeway offramp, too . . . the results are just about as predictable.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

The problem is when untrained,selfish, poorly skilled people enter caves and die it's not like a saltwater wreck where the fish and crabs will clean them up in short order. Trained cave divera have to risk their lives to pull them out. During that time they have to close the cave, start an investigation, deal with the authorities, etc. All because of one or more selfish individuals.

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[Texasguy]

I agree on cave diving not being the pinnacle of scuba. I wouldn't go into caves on land, not even talking about the ones under the water. I enjoy shallow dives where colors are preserved and aquatic life is seen - this is scuba. Everybody is different.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

You sound like the beach bum surfer bullies who think that the coasts are for them only.

So what if the other divers are untrained? Where does it say that you're responsible for their safety? Where does it say that the caves/caverns belong to you?

You dive your dive and they dive their dives. Hell, even you cave divers get killed with all your fancy trainings and equipment. Diving is DANGEROUS. If people know about the danger but decide to be deliberately ignorant, so what? It's their lives, not yours.

If somebody were to manhandle or chase me underwater, they'd get introduced to a nice, sharp, pointy thing.

I'll give that attitude some credence when you have to pull some other diver's body out of a cave. But you're absolutely wrong about the sentence I highlighted above. First, because if you're deliberately ignorant, then you don't know about the danger. And second off, it's not about your life ... it's about the lives of the people who will have to come retrieve your carcass ... the lives of the grieving family you leave behind, and the impact it'll have on access to that cave system for everyone else. Your attitude is selfish ... that's the only appropriate word I can think of for it.

Non-cave trained people don't belong in caves ... period. And if you insist on going in, then you deserve to have your ass hauled out and dressed down for stupidity ... because that's way preferable to the other alternative, which involves having your dead ass hauled out.

I'm cave-trained, but not a cave diver ... more a line-following cave tourist with very limited experience. And yet I've already seen people inside the caves that have absolutely NO BUSINESS being there. Except for either the graces of cave divers looking out for them ... or pure dumb luck ... those are dead people who don't realize they've committed suicide yet. I don't care how experienced you are in open water ... or how "good" you believe your skills to be. Unless you've trained for diving in caves, you are in no way qualified to be in there.

Not everyone aspires to diving in caves. I enjoy it ... but I enjoy diving in places where I see colorful critters even more.

Not everyone wants to treat their dive like it was a "mission" ... I enjoy it, but I enjoy just dropping in for a nice, relaxing dive even more.

Let's be real ... diving is a recreational activity. On a life-importance scale of 1 to 10 it ranks somewhere below 5 ... it's something we do for fun. Let's do try to keep that in perspective. There is no "pinnacle" ... everyone I've ever met who takes that attitude eventually gets bored and quits diving ... moving on to become "the best" at something else. Because at some point, your reasons for doing it cease to be worth the effort.

On the other hand, I don't think that's why the OP is getting the experiences he describes in the post that started this thread. It's not unusual for someone not cave-certified to be viewed with a bit of "suspicion" in that area ... there's little to dive there except caves, and way too often someone with an inflated view of their abilities and an excess of self-image wanders into a place that they don't belong ... and the impact of their decision affects a lot of people other than themselves.

Nobody wants to see someone else commit suicide. And don't for a moment think that Edd or anyone else enjoys having their day ruined to go try to rescue ... or more often recover the body of ... some idiot who thought he could handle going into the cave. If it didn't happen so often, then perhaps non-cave certified divers wouldn't be viewed the way they are. So perhaps rather than blaming all the "arrogant" cavers, consider that it's the "arrogant" non-cavers that have created the problem.

As for the comment about the Dive Outpost ... that surprises me, and I suspect there's more to the story that hasn't been told. You'd be hard-pressed to find a more friendly, accommodating person than Cathy ... and I have a hard time believing that she would make a comment like that. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I suspect that comment was either taken out of context or misunderstood altogether ... there's plenty in that shop that's not specific to cave diving. I'd be more willing to believe that something got said that led her to believe you were looking to take those tanks inside the cave system ... which would, understandably, cause her to decide not to fill them for you. If that happened, and she filled your tanks knowing you intended to use them in that manner (or even suspecting it) ... then should the outcome turn out fatal, it would be pretty much a guarantee that she'd be party to a lawsuit brought by your surviving family members.

It's simple enough, really ... if you aren't cave trained, stay out of the caves. Then you don't have to put up with the "arrogance" of people who made the effort to get qualified to be in there.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lowviz]

...//...Non-cave trained people don't belong in caves ... period. And if you insist on going in, then you deserve to have your ass hauled out ...//...

If for no other reason than you are seriously threatening the hard work of others. It is easy for landowners to get a grate installed at a cave entrance.

...//...I'm cave-trained, but not a cave diver ... more a line-following cave tourist with very limited experience. ...//...

Wonderful thing, that. Same. I can get an inexpensive cave dive with my instructor at my side whenever I'm in the area. Open invitation. Adds a really nice dimension to my diving.

...//...Not everyone wants to treat their dive like it was a "mission" ... I enjoy it, but I enjoy just dropping in for a nice, relaxing dive even more. ...//...

Oh yes.

...//... recover the body of ... some idiot who thought he could handle going into the cave. If it didn't happen so often, then perhaps non-cave certified divers wouldn't be viewed the way they are. So perhaps rather than blaming all the "arrogant" cavers, consider that it's the "arrogant" non-cavers that have created the problem. ...//...

Cave deaths are well investigated, documented, and available for public review. I would encourage any diver interested in entering a cavern or cave to review same.

Nicely done, Bob.

 

[Lorenzoid]

The problem is when untrained,selfish, poorly skilled people enter caves and die it's not like a saltwater wreck where the fish and crabs will clean them up in short order. Trained cave divera have to risk their lives to pull them out. During that time they have to close the cave, start an investigation, deal with the authorities, etc. All because of one or more selfish individuals.

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So to answer the first part my own question, it seems wreck diving is not closely analogous to cave diving in the context of evangelism/snobbishness because caves are a natural lure for unsuspecting OW divers, whereas wrecks typically require a boat to get out there and other hurdles. It might then follow that wreck divers aren't as evangelical or snobbish because they aren't so frequently faced with the consequences of unqualified divers getting themselves into trouble in a wreck. Eh?

 

[Keith.M]

I think what Highwing was making a point of is that's it's damn near impossible to fail a PADI class. And that's a problem.

It is very evident that you have an ax to grind with PADI as you jump on this whenever you have the chance.

As has been stated on these forums so many times, it really is all about the instructor, regardless of the organization.

After 54 dives, I figured it was time to do the AOW and I completed it this past weekend with the Course Director of my LDS. On board we had three other AOW students, 2 tech divers and a guy doing dry suit.

The tech divers plans were running lines and practicing drills. The dry suit diver just hung around and practiced his buoyancy with the suit while the four of us AOW students did our 5 dives. Out of the 4 of us, two of us were prepared. We had done all the reading, completed the knowledge reviews and were ready from the get go to do the dives. The same could not be said for the other two divers. They came with their manuals, but nothing filled out. I do not know if they did the reading or not, but since they didn't fill out the reviews, they couldn't in my mind have been taking it very seriously and their diving skills or lack of skills, was very obvious.

In the end, myself and the other guy who did the work passed the class with ease. But, the other two did not. They failed that PADI class. So to say that you can't fail a PADI class and divers are just moved along is absolutely not true at my LDS. Even in my Open Water class with a different instructor from the same LDS, there was one student who did not pass.

I do understand that everyones experience with this is different and I have no doubt that there are lousy instructors out there. I have heard that PADI is 3 times as large as all the other agencies combined so naturally there are going to be more bad instructors from PADI. But there are also a lot of good instructors too. The diver themselves has the responsibility to make sure they get themselves with the best instructor for their needs. That numbers game is exactly why there are so many different viruses created for Windows OS, because there is such a larger install base than anything else.

 

[HIGHwing]

If somebody were to manhandle or chase me underwater, they'd get introduced to a nice, sharp, pointy thing.

I bet your attitude would change right around 400psi.