Not everyone thinks cave diving is the pinnacle of SCUBA!

[lowviz]

...//... So please be considerate and stay out of the caves if you are not properly trained. ...//...

Divers pushing the limits for bragging rights or adrenaline highs tend to rate consideration fairly low. It is of the moment. Best to remind them that no previously unknown diver is going to become an overnight dive hero by dying in a cave. You become and remain a dead idiot. Then wish them luck and notify the proper authority -and let it go.

...//... I can almost guarantee you that there will be better divers overall than on almost any boat anywhere diving a reef or wreck. ...//...

Possibly a better comparison is to wrecks or dives that are comparable to even the simplest tourist cave. Those would be deep penetration or dives beyond recreational limits. The lines begin to blur.

...//... Now in cave diving the dive is the hard part and the deco is easy and in wreck diving it is the other way around from my experience. ...//...

My experience differs.

• Caves are seductive, they just draw me inward. This is what scares me about caves. you can quickly find yourself lost and a long way from home. Penetrations, even for new cave students, are stupidly far compared to wreck penetrations.
• Wrecks are dangerous collapsing structures that increasingly scare the s---t out of me with forward progress. While you are watching for sharp edges, look at what is rotting out and dangling above you on your next wreck dive.

In general, they are two very different types of mazes.
I will offer for comment that cave divers, as a group, tend to focus much more on training and self discipline. Much of what cavers work out gets transferred to wreck diving simply because it works well in wrecks too.

 

[lv2dive]

Oh for crying out loud. I seriously doubt people are grabbing people and dragging them out without trying to get to them to leave on their own first.

And secondly... for all of you who are saying "no is allowed to touch me blah blah blah" - there ARE exceptions. For example, someone might get bent out of shape over being shoved until they realize that they were shoved out of the way of a crazy bike rider that was getting ready to plow into them. Of course they can still sue for assault if they want to - but what judge is going to award damages? And I'm sure someone can find a miscarriage of justice where common sense didn't prevail. However, with regards to the one case I'm aware of that DID make it in front of a judge in FL - common sense DID prevail and the case against the cave diver "escorter" was thrown out.

 

[danvolker]

Getting back to the original post....My first exposure to cave divers and the techniques they use, was on deep spearfishing dives in wrecks..with a bunch of guys that were cave divers ( and also were ocean divers).
The most notable thing I remember, was following 2 cave divers deep into a PASSAGEWAY in the wreck, my following because of the Red Snapper that had blasted into here ahead of us, obviously looking for a place to hide....so the first thing was when they stopped to lay some line ( so we would not get lost), and they were hanging suspended in a passageway, going down over a narrow stair way that kept turning and going down....these guys were like "sky hooked"--they stayed in the center of the space they were in, without effort, messing with the line, etc.... I was thinking at the time how any other spearfisherman I had ever dived with, could lay the line, but they would have had to either hit ceiling or bottom or held themselves into place( which of course could have been a silting issue).....the motionless with the task of working the line was almost incomprehensible back then. It was a skill I had not seen before ( 1996) , and I could see the value in having skills like this on a wreck penetration. I also noticed how easily they moved around wihout silting or bumping into th8ings, and wihtout having to use their hands to change directions or fend off....

So as time went on, and I dived a lot more with cave divers, there were plenty of things they did better than wreck divers...but there were also plenty of things that some of the cave divers with little time in the ocean, did poorly. One of their problems ( the ones with little ocean expereince) was they could not descend properly for a deep drift dive...they were so used to a slow measured descent, that they would be blown way off a deep wreck, unless they were forced into different behaviors by their group leader.....

Also, many would tend to use the frog kick, in places where it was just the wrong kick---in going from point A to point B, sideways to a current, where an efficiency at higher speeds is critical. There are plenty of things a good cave diver can learn from a good wreck diver, and vice versa.


As to the attitudes, I never experienced the snotty attitude issues... I think if a cave diver sees you in the water, and can tell you are squared away, and have good situational awareness and gas planning, most will treat you just like another cave diver---not meaning that they would take you in a cave, but that they would not feel any superiority. I certainly have never felt that a tech diver or a cave diver is somehow BETTER as a diver.....being good as a diver, is having the maximum amount of fun you can have, safely. With this in mind, there are plenty of divers with 10 years or more experience, diving skillfully but just with a OW card, who have a great time diving--and no cave or tech diver is BETTER as a diver than they are.

 

[Paladin]

Oh for crying out loud. I seriously doubt people are grabbing people and dragging them out without trying to get to them to leave on their own first.

And secondly... for all of you who are saying "no is allowed to touch me blah blah blah" - there ARE exceptions. For example, someone might get bent out of shape over being shoved until they realize that they were shoved out of the way of a crazy bike rider that was getting ready to plow into them. Of course they can still sue for assault if they want to - but what judge is going to award damages? And I'm sure someone can find a miscarriage of justice where common sense didn't prevail. However, with regards to the one case I'm aware of that DID make it in front of a judge in FL - common sense DID prevail and the case against the cave diver "escorter" was thrown out.

But was that case based on assault and battery or on denial of entry because the person was prevented from going into the cave? An assault and battery charge would probably stick, regardless of the venue. I know it would in my state.

 

[danvolker]

Oh for crying out loud. I seriously doubt people are grabbing people and dragging them out without trying to get to them to leave on their own first.

And secondly... for all of you who are saying "no is allowed to touch me blah blah blah" - there ARE exceptions. For example, someone might get bent out of shape over being shoved until they realize that they were shoved out of the way of a crazy bike rider that was getting ready to plow into them. Of course they can still sue for assault if they want to - but what judge is going to award damages? And I'm sure someone can find a miscarriage of justice where common sense didn't prevail. However, with regards to the one case I'm aware of that DID make it in front of a judge in FL - common sense DID prevail and the case against the cave diver "escorter" was thrown out.

I agree! I would also think that if a cave diver had to grab someone to get them out of a dangerous area--the whole grabbing thing whenever this is a predictable scenario, is going to be for some diver with almost no situational awareness--they dont see the cave diver, will not pay attention to gestures, and are clearly not aware of something that any decent diver should be aware of....there "are" divers with no awareness of what is around them, and most really should not even be divers...they get away with it in 40 to 50 foot shallow tropical reefs, because the challenges there are so tiny, that these people can make dozens of mistakes and still get away with them.... Deep into a cave is not so forgiving

 

[drrich2]

It's still highly disturbing to read that the general attitude of a lot of people in this topic when someone physically touches them is to kick, punch and stab their way to reason without even knowing why the person is there.

I think attitude is showing more so than a true probability to stab anybody (and likely not punch or kick, though I suppose that's possible). That said, with a stranger underwater, you just don't know their personality (e.g.: sense of pride, emotional reactivity, anger issues, impulsivity, tolerance for being touched by strangers, attitude toward violence when 'disrespected').

To many of us, the idea of a diver in a cave grabbing you & hauling you out doesn't trigger anticipation of murder, rape, kidnapping, etc... But imagine an OW diver who doesn't mix much in the scuba community or spend time on a scuba forum getting a dose of 'community common sense' - will he know that?

I admire people trying to save lives; I just see where the effort itself could go wrong.

On the issue of missing body retrieval, authorities pretty much have to go get them, to confirm cause of death, examine for evidence of foul play (such as murder by buddy!), etc... Otherwise seems like letting the eels or what-have-you eat the body would be okay.

Richard.

 

[koozemani]

Still wondering why this is in Basic Scuba

 

[JamesK]

Umm, excuse me people, but NO ONE HAS THE "RIGHT" TO GO IN A CAVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The fact that anyone even thinks or says they have the right to be there is comical at best, plain ass idiotic otherwise.

You are granted the privilege of using their property to gain access to the cave! Oh, but I can always use a public waterway and gain access! Bullcrap! The state can and will an has closed caves on public waterways. Why do you think so many beautiful caves on state property are not open to cave diving? Or even open to diving?

So please shut up with this right crap.

 

[fnfalman]

Oh for crying out loud. I seriously doubt people are grabbing people and dragging them out without trying to get to them to leave on their own first.

So, you're OK with manhandling divers who don't want to follow your directives?

And secondly... for all of you who are saying "no is allowed to touch me blah blah blah" - there ARE exceptions. For example, someone might get bent out of shape over being shoved until they realize that they were shoved out of the way of a crazy bike rider that was getting ready to plow into them. Of course they can still sue for assault if they want to - but what judge is going to award damages? And I'm sure someone can find a miscarriage of justice where common sense didn't prevail. However, with regards to the one case I'm aware of that DID make it in front of a judge in FL - common sense DID prevail and the case against the cave diver "escorter" was thrown out.

What does shoving somebody out of the way of a vehicle have to do with manhandling a diver who does not wish to follow your self-righteous directives?

I'm underwater doing my thing and you start coming up, waving at me then pulling at me, I'd get a might upset. If you don't stop, I'm going to assume that you're trying to kill me underwater and I'll respond in kind. You ain't the police. You ain't security hired on by the site owner. You ain't gonna be touchin' me without repercussion. It's that simple.

---------- Post added February 23rd, 2013 at 01:17 PM ----------

I'd have to say that FNFALMan's comments come off more as "I can do whatever I want, however I want to, and don't care if I screw up everything for everyone else, and if you mess with me I've got a knife and I'll kill you."

Nice...

Hey, if you value others' opinions so much then why are you cave diving? It's a ridiculously dangerous activity. Well trained divers have died and still are dying. Don't you care about your family members? Don't you care about the government shutting down the site?

Don't want to get knifed? Easy. Then leave me alone. Manhandle me underwater and give me reasons to think that you're endangering my life then don't be surprised if I'm going to practice some self defense.

Since someone gearing up for a cave dive with a 6 "pig sticker" is a dead giveaway of cluelessness, I say that any of those that are of a mind to intervene should start in the parking area. That way, if there's killing, then at least it doesn't get blamed on a killer cave, and you're more likely to be better equipped for the fight out there.

Still none of your business, right? Nobody hired you on to be the PADI Police or DIR SWAT. If I were to want your opinions, I would have asked you.

 

[TreyR]

Stop feeding the Trolls...