Not ditching for fear of losing. Black or NTSB neon inserts?

[CT-Rich]

I agree that we can not assume there is any relationship between a diver found dead on the bottom and the failure to drop ballast. I also think we should pretty much assume that most significant cardiac events which occur on the bottom are not survivable, but that does not mean that ditching lead is not critical in some situations.

In order to understand the importance of dropping lead, it would seem necessary to also look very carefully at the NON-fatal accidents and incidents. How many people were saved, or avoided sinking further into the incident pit by dropping ballast? That is the type of statistic that would seem most relevant to determine he efficacy and safety of dropping lead.

I'm not a statistician, but it seems to me that in order to understand the importance (and negatives) of dropping lead at the surface or at depth, you would want to try to look at the number of people who died from embolisms (or DCI) that dropped lead at depth (and maybe assume a larger percentage of those cases were caused by dropping lead) and compare that to the number of people who have "walked away" from the situation with zero (or minimal) injuries. For example, if 10% of the people die and 90% of them walk away, then we might be more comfortable with the concept of dropping lead at depth.

Also, the discussion of dropping lead (at depth) tends to be very polarizing and always seems to be excessively biased from the PERSONAL perspective of the diver. More specifically, the significance (or danger) of dropping lead in a warm water situation (with minimal exposure protection) is probably small because we are talking about a "modest" amount of lead (maybe 3 to 10 lbs or so). I typically dive with zero to 6-8 lbs of lead on a belt - so dropping the belt would be a no brainer for me if it was a no-deco dive and I thought it was possibly necessary.

Conversely, if you are wearing a 25-lb weight belt and drop the entire amount, the resulting buoyancy change can most definitely be significant and dangerous. In any regard, we are constantly hearing the overly simplistic, comment that ditching lead at depth is going to send you rocketing to the surface. NOT a valid assumption in all situations.

I personally feel that for recreational diving, having 6 or 8 lbs of ditchable lead is much safer than having all lead integrated and unable to be jettisoned on the bottom.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, no one reports on dive accidents that you walk away from. Non-fatal accidents requiring either medical treatment or Coast Guard assistance might be getting reported, but even then, the data will be spotty.

If you want to find out the efficacy of dropping weights, you might want to talk with a charter boat captain. One that has been around ten or more years. If a charter carries 10 divers for 2 dives five days a week in ten years he woul have over seen 50,000 dives. He'd have seen pretty much every type of screw up imaginable and would good idea how often divers walk away from ditching lead at depth. It's anecdotal evidence, but statistics on dive accidents is less than perfect anyway. Commercial and military divers might have data, but that is an entirely different beast.

An unconscious diver shooting to the surface will probably only make the body recovery easier. The divers that are most likely to need to dump weights at depth are going to be newer divers, who tend to be over weighted anyway.

The dumping lead at depth discussion always reminds me of the seatbelt argument that focuses on the remote possibility of the car landing water and sinking while you are belted in...

Since we're on the subject of dead divers, what percentage of dead divers are recovered with gas still on their back?

 

[CuzzA]

I don't want color for my weights, I can buy that. I want it for the special inner integrated weight pouch that I ditch it in. It just seems silly to make that part in black.

Well, find a local seamstress and have them made. Your problem will be solved.

 

[Nemrod]

Hi, I’m new posting on the board. I assist in teaching scientific diving at UC Berkeley, where I’m a graduate student. This post is about a near miss I could see myself making. I don’t think it’s far fetched. It doesn’t involve any accident I know of. I’m just wondering about my gear, and maybe all our gear. It might be a little thing we can fix.

From reading accident reports, it seems many bodies are recovered with all their weights and getting people to ditch when needed is important. So I wonder about how I’ve set up my ditch choices. On my rig, my choices are between 4 pounds in each of two ditchable weight pockets, or a 14 pound belt (1). The 4 pound pocket inserts are black and the belt is neon.

In a drill, I would hesitate to drop the black 4 pound inserts for fear of losing them in the bottom, preferring my heavier neon belt. In a potential emergency wondering if maybe I should ditch some weight, a small part of my brain would worry about the weight color. Because you play like you practice. I think I would make whatever the right choice is, but it would be much nicer if there were no little hitches getting in the way of that choice. If my ditchable weights were uniformly NTSB neon orange findable.

If we can, let’s assume that others have discussed at length the safety of surface ditching, the risks of deep or cave ditching, balanced rigs, redundant buoyancy, and the option of incremental ditching.

So, assume that I ditch the neon 14 pound belt at depth and become an embolism rocket or vacillate between black and neon and drown. Would people worry about the color choice by dear departed me? If we are fine tuning our safety, how do neon weight pocket inserts look in terms of pros and cons?

My thoughts on the pros and cons.
Pros:
* Color not slowing down my stressed brain on if or which weight to ditch.
* Few worries finding them after a practice ocean ditch drill.
* Option of ‘safety is key’ discussion when appropriate.

Cons:
* Some neon shining out of the outer pocket during the dive.
* Explaining why the pockets are funky without freaking people out.
* Any patent on bright colors for things you drop in murky water.
* Sourcing neon fabric, and maybe tape.
* People ditching ones they’ve stuffed 14 pounds into and becoming rockets.

If people like the neon option, I found coated neon 1000D Cordora at seattlefabrics and rockywoods, but not uncoated. On which neon color, I like green as sort of a very bright bit of plant, that maybe fits the underwater ecosystem I’m visiting. Orange might be safest; some might like pink or yellow. For safety, the differences seem less than the black to neon change.

Some luggage companies have differentiated themselves by using brightly colored linings inside their bags to make it easier to find little stuff. Maybe we should follow their lead for detachable weight pocket inserts. Granted, it might not save a life. But it would make practicing ditching easier, it would raise the bar of the safety conversation, and the costs do not look high.

Is there a reason weight inserts are black? Have others looked at this?

Edit: Added poll. And I'm not very worried about my weights, but, if we can pick, black seems the wrong choice, to me.

Michael McCoyd

(1) I have ditchable ACB pockets so I can ditch incrementally at depth and not turn into a missile. I have a heavy weight belt so I can manage detaching myself from my rig mid water if entangled. 35 pounds total for a 10mm farmer john and beaver tail wetsuit for single tank dives, which I likely can swim up with out ditching from the fairly shallow depths I dive.

Huh?

N

 

[MichaelMc]

Well, find a local seamstress and have them made. Your problem will be solved.

I have one I've used in the past, Narain's Outdoor Repair. Still looking for uncoated D1000, or some neon mesh as that looks smarter, not trapping air and all. But maybe I'm missing some key safety aspect of my dive gear and those pouches really are better in black. I do not think they are. Is there a reason black is a better color?

Huh?

I'm thinking of making my weight pocket inserts neon instead of black to make them easier to find if I ditch or drop them, accidentally or otherwise. Or stick some high vis tape on them. Is there a reason they are better as black? They, ACB pockets, sit inside an outer pocket during the dive so do not really show much unless dropped.

 

[Captain Swoop]

I have one I've used in the past, Narain's Outdoor Repair. Still looking for uncoated D1000, or some neon mesh as that looks smarter, not trapping air and all. But maybe I'm missing some key safety aspect of my dive gear and those pouches really are better in black. I do not think they are. Is there a reason black is a better color?

Cost, Manufacturers have lots of black fabric, they have lots of small offcuts they want to use and don't want to stock a different colour just for one job.
Demand, Would they stock it as an option and risk having a lot of dead stock if they didn't sell? or, would they fit them as standard and risk losing sales because people want cool looking black?

 

[Bennno]

If I were making pouches and ordered several yards of neon instead of black for the pouches, how much would be the extra cost? $1 per? $5 per?

It doesn't cost more, the black nylon is also died. You can get any color nylon fabric for the same price.

Is there a reason weight inserts are black? Have others looked at this?

Some older Scubapro BCDs had neon yellow weight pockets... the customer wants black stuff though. So, it's been done.

As already mentioned, people that panic don't think straight.

I don't think your idea is bad, but I don't think there is a real-life benefit. Think about this: People buy black fins and other black gear even though, practically it makes no sense at all. People don't buy what makes sense though, people buy stuff they think looks cool.

 

[Bennno]

Cost, Manufacturers have lots of black fabric, they have lots of small offcuts they want to use and don't want to stock a different colour just for one job.

When you buy in large quantities, that stuff costs next to nothing... the cordura for the entire BC costs maybe 1.5 dollars (on the high side) or less depending on size of the production run. What's expensive is cost of labour.

 

[MichaelMc]

Cost, Manufacturers have lots of black fabric, they have lots of small offcuts they want to use and don't want to stock a different colour just for one job.

I don't think your idea is bad, but I don't think there is a real-life benefit. Think about this: People buy black fins and other black gear even though, practically it makes no sense at all. People don't buy what makes sense though, people buy stuff they think looks cool.

I understand that for recreation gear. I understand it less for high end technical gear, for a community that talks about being meticulous about safety procedures and doing everything they can to be safer. Granted, doing that **** is really cool, so they might want cool gear. But still. NOT that this is anywhere high on the list of issues for high risk environments, but that is supposed to be about ruthlessly removing factors that place one at risk.

 

[CT-Rich]

I understand that for recreation gear. I understand it less for high end technical gear, for a community that talks about being meticulous about safety procedures and doing everything they can to be safer. Granted, doing that **** is really cool, so they might want cool gear. But still. NOT that this is anywhere high on the list of issues for high risk environments, but that is supposed to be about ruthlessly removing factors that place one at risk.

You are right about ruthlessly removing factors, right up until you they have to wear neon pink.... then the desire for quasi military look takes over (This is a joke fella's, just a joke...)

 

[Bennno]

I understand it less for high end technical gear, for a community that talks about being meticulous about safety procedures and doing everything they can to be safer.

Yeah, but that's BS talk for the most part. If people were serious about it, everybody would buy orange or yellows hoods and fins and stuff like that. Look at how many instructor use black fins... black is pretty much the worst color for scuba gear in general.

If you wanna hear my honest opinion, forgett about it. Cool stuff is what sells and companies know that. Look at the car market... people that have a choice never buy stuff that makes sense, it's either because it's fun or an image reasons... another example are rebreathers, or motor bikes.