Not ditching for fear of losing. Black or NTSB neon inserts?

[TMHeimer]

I've lost black weight pockets 3 times over 11 years. The first time was as a newbie not securing one properly, This one fell in 20' water into such high eel grass that you'd never find it regardless of colour. The other two were actually due to buckle failure on my old BC--both of these I was able to recover using rocks to get down. Thus, having different colored pockets would not have made a difference.

 

[boulderjohn]

So why do so many divers die with their weights on?

Try an experiment. Go to any of the annual DAN fatality reports and go through the description of the fatal events and try to fit dropping weights into the scenario as a lifesaving measure. I did that myself for several such studies covering several years and found that in fewer than 10% of the cases dropping weights MIGHT have made a difference. Someone said in any earlier post that panic was the single most important factor in fatalities. It isn't. Cardiac events lead the causes, and when you pass out from a heart attack, you aren't going to drop your weights, and dropping them won't bring you back to life. The single most common incident causing a death is indeed related to panic--the diver makes a panicked ascent to the surface, usually after going out of air, and gets a fatal embolism from that panicked, breath-holding ascent. Again, dropping weights would have made no difference; in fact, it might have made the possibility of death even greater. There are then entanglements and other similar issues. Of the 10% I found where dropping weights MIGHT have made a difference, the reason I included them was usually because there was not enough information to get a really clear idea what happened, which is why I stressed the word MIGHT

So yes, the overwhelming majority of scuba fatalities had their weights on, but that does not mean that failing to drop the drop those weights was a factor in their deaths.

 

[Storker]

So why do so many divers die with their weights on?

Try an experiment. Go to any of the annual DAN fatality reports and go through the description of the fatal events and try to fit dropping weights into the scenario as a lifesaving measure. I did that myself for several such studies covering several years and found that in fewer than 10% of the cases dropping weights MIGHT have made a difference. Someone said in any earlier post that panic was the single most important factor in fatalities. It isn't. Cardiac events lead the causes, and when you pass out from a heart attack, you aren't going to drop your weights, and dropping them won't bring you back to life. The single most common incident causing a death is indeed related to panic--the diver makes a panicked ascent to the surface, usually after going out of air, and gets a fatal embolism from that panicked, breath-holding ascent. Again, dropping weights would have made no difference; in fact, it might have made the possibility of death even greater. There are then entanglements and other similar issues. Of the 10% I found where dropping weights MIGHT have made a difference, the reason I included them was usually because there was not enough information to get a really clear idea what happened, which is why I stressed the word MIGHT

So yes, the overwhelming majority of scuba fatalities had their weights on, but that does not mean that failing to drop the drop those weights was a factor in their deaths.

I guess this depends on quite a bit of external factors. In my little part of the world, OOG-induced embolisms and coronary incidents make up a noticeably smaller fraction of triggering events than they do in the global statistics. I guess it's due to the challenge of diving our kind of conditions, and that - for darned good reasons - commercial ops like the type you find in warm-water vacation destinations are about as common as hen's teeth.

Don't dismiss failure to ditch weights as an important factor for fatalities just because it isn't so in typical vacation diving destinations (which admittedly make up a large volume of the total amount of diving around the world).

 

[CT-Rich]

If you want to make weights during a drill easy to find, get a plastic streamer aabout 2 meters long and attach it to the weight, roll the rest o the tape around a solid piece of buoyant plastic. Load the streamer into the pocket so it sits behind th pouch. When you ditch the weight, the streamer will unfurl behind the weight and float upright off the bottom.

ditching weight at depth won't necessarily make you buoyant, depending on your depth and exposure suit and situation. Most dumped weights are going to be when a diver is struggling on the surface, can't get up the ladder in full gear or something. Least of your worries should be getting them back. I have 12 lbs on a belt and 2 x 4 lbs in pouches. Still waiting on needing to ditch them. I have accidentally opened the buckle and on another occasion lost an unsecured pouch. Found few,too.

 

[diversteve]

Yes !!! Points go to SeaSoft !!!

Edit: Also Zeagle got it right as well with yellow neon inserts, for surface ditching.
Mesh Weight Pouch 12lb

They're not just for surface ditching, they hold the weights intact till you pull the Ripcord and drop them. And probably make the weights slide thru the opening easier.

Also the handles make it easier on the crew if you hand your weights up prior to re-boarding the boat like I occasionally do.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

So why do so many divers die with their weights on?

Try an experiment. Go to any of the annual DAN fatality reports and go through the description of the fatal events and try to fit dropping weights into the scenario as a lifesaving measure. I did that myself for several such studies covering several years and found that in fewer than 10% of the cases dropping weights MIGHT have made a difference. Someone said in any earlier post that panic was the single most important factor in fatalities. It isn't. Cardiac events lead the causes, and when you pass out from a heart attack, you aren't going to drop your weights, and dropping them won't bring you back to life. The single most common incident causing a death is indeed related to panic--the diver makes a panicked ascent to the surface, usually after going out of air, and gets a fatal embolism from that panicked, breath-holding ascent. Again, dropping weights would have made no difference; in fact, it might have made the possibility of death even greater. There are then entanglements and other similar issues. Of the 10% I found where dropping weights MIGHT have made a difference, the reason I included them was usually because there was not enough information to get a really clear idea what happened, which is why I stressed the word MIGHT

So yes, the overwhelming majority of scuba fatalities had their weights on, but that does not mean that failing to drop the drop those weights was a factor in their deaths.

I agree that we can not assume there is any relationship between a diver found dead on the bottom and the failure to drop ballast. I also think we should pretty much assume that most significant cardiac events which occur on the bottom are not survivable, but that does not mean that ditching lead is not critical in some situations.

In order to understand the importance of dropping lead, it would seem necessary to also look very carefully at the NON-fatal accidents and incidents. How many people were saved, or avoided sinking further into the incident pit by dropping ballast? That is the type of statistic that would seem most relevant to determine he efficacy and safety of dropping lead.

I'm not a statistician, but it seems to me that in order to understand the importance (and negatives) of dropping lead at the surface or at depth, you would want to try to look at the number of people who died from embolisms (or DCI) that dropped lead at depth (and maybe assume a larger percentage of those cases were caused by dropping lead) and compare that to the number of people who have "walked away" from the situation with zero (or minimal) injuries. For example, if 10% of the people die and 90% of them walk away, then we might be more comfortable with the concept of dropping lead at depth.

Also, the discussion of dropping lead (at depth) tends to be very polarizing and always seems to be excessively biased from the PERSONAL perspective of the diver. More specifically, the significance (or danger) of dropping lead in a warm water situation (with minimal exposure protection) is probably small because we are talking about a "modest" amount of lead (maybe 3 to 10 lbs or so). I typically dive with zero to 6-8 lbs of lead on a belt - so dropping the belt would be a no brainer for me if it was a no-deco dive and I thought it was possibly necessary.

Conversely, if you are wearing a 25-lb weight belt and drop the entire amount, the resulting buoyancy change can most definitely be significant and dangerous. In any regard, we are constantly hearing the overly simplistic, comment that ditching lead at depth is going to send you rocketing to the surface. NOT a valid assumption in all situations.

I personally feel that for recreational diving, having 6 or 8 lbs of ditchable lead is much safer than having all lead integrated and unable to be jettisoned on the bottom.

 

[MichaelMc]

Very good discussion.
As long as people also vote on color choice while we are here.

 

[CuzzA]

If you want color on your weights, buy hard lead, cut it to size and dip them in bright PlastiDip. I doubt this thread will result in any change in manufacturing.

Personally, I'm not seeing the problem. With any kind of vis over a sand bottom while doing training a weight pocket shouldn't be hard to find. If it is, I'd reconsider the site. In the real world, I could care less about a sack of lead. The stuff is pretty cheap if you source it from non-scuba sources.

I've ditched lead one time in the real world. I surfaced too far from the boat, went un-noticed for 20 minutes, had dead fish hanging off me and big tooth animals that wanted my dinner. It took me a fraction of second to realize the lead needed to go because there was a higher possibility that if I were bit my BC would lose the ability to hold gas. I didn't think about the cost, trying to retrieve them or anything except staying on the surface and getting the boat's attention. Lead isn't even a consideration compared to my life.

And it seems it's a wash anyway with gear... leave a few, pick up a few... Lead, shafts, anchors, etc.

 

[Hoag]

I was on a dive in Bonaire on the Hilma Hooker and one of the people in our group had their weight pocket fall out while at about 85 feet. Their buddy saw what happened and while the diver grabbed onto a piece of the wreck, the buddy went to the bottom (IIRC about 110 ft) got the weight pocket & was able to put them back (all while the diver still held on to a pice of the wreck). I have no idea what colour the pocket was, but I can't help but think that in this case, brightly coloured weight pockets would have made it easy (easier) for the buddy to find it on the bottom.

 

[MichaelMc]

If you want color on your weights,

I don't want color for my weights, I can buy that. I want it for the special inner integrated weight pouch that I ditch it in. It just seems silly to make that part in black.