Nitrox VIP Sticker not good enough?

[pt40fathoms]

Clearly you didn't dive in MB "DeepScuba", cause if you did you would have been to this little lake called West Hawk Lake. It's not a quarry, never been to one myself, guess I'll have to listen to your descriptions on quarries to get the full picture of what it's like to dive in one. As for being shallow, well yeah it's not that deep, only goes to 365 feet, but I'm sure that’s no problem for you, cause I'm sure you've done that on a single 80, half filled, and still had lots of gas for the next dive. As for Genesis and your labeling, well good for you. You have a system that works for you, that a few others on this board have picked up as well. The two of you have clearly never worked as a DM or Instructor with new OW students, I would have to say that's a very good thing. So Keep on doing what you are doing, both of you, and take great pleasure in knowing that you are so much smarter and better than almost every one else you meet. I bow to your enlightenment and knowledge and eagerly await your next morsel of wisdom.

 

[WillAbbott]

OK folks...

There is good stuff in here. Excellent, passionate debate. Laced in the useful content is actually some wit, some sarcasm and even a little irony. So far, I'm liking it.

But like so many threads these days, its circling the drain with personal jabs that simply don't add value to its worthy content. The personal stuff is beneath you smart, funny people. The dialog here is too cool to kill with all that crapola.

I wacked the entire thread. I was just sick of it. Mike F called me on it - I thought about it, took another read, and I put it back lightly sanitized for your protection. Some posts I killed, others I just notched out.

Lets try to keep things on topic and keep the personal jabs out of it. You got a problem with someone, PM them and call them a jerk - don't do it here.

There is stuff in here that is too good to throw in the trash.

Thanks -

Ken
Sleep deprived Mod du'jour

Well, I must say I'm surprised the number of replies.

I did have a good reply all typed out, but lost it when the thread got killed.

Let me try and redo it somewhat.


Let us assume for a minute (hypothetically) that Nitrox bands do NOT exist, and therefore are NOT required.

What then is the problem with a EANx Visual Inspection sticker (green and yellow with EAN clearly written) over a sticker which says in many more words this tank for premix (yadda yadda, however it's written)

<end hypothetical>

The example sticker in question came from Trident, which has wording similar to the IANTD one... however it states the tank conforms to SCUBA industry standards, which according to my shop, there is no such thing.

The Nameless shop had zero issues with no bands on the tanks, but that the EAN Visual Inspection sticker was not adequate though it said EAN Visual inspection. PP mixing was not an issue as they do continous blending, etc.


The fact is they have filled tanks with Nitrox bands, but no nitrox VIP stickers... and belive it or not, when they assembled my friends nitrox tanks into doubles(with bands, no EAN VIP tag) they found junk in the tanks... brand new PST tanks, only filled at about 3 reputable air places, and always filled with EAN... something is wrong there. But that's a different story.


The fact of the mater is, they have filled these tanks with the same markings I had this time, with 21% without an issue (same guy doing the fills, he always does the fills at the shop in question, one guy talks, one guy does all the work and sales) But for some reason this time he decided they weren't good enough.


If I have to order the stickers he wants from Trident or the IANTD similar ones, so be it... I'm sure my shop won't have a problem with special ordering them for me, and letting me or them stick them on.


As for personal cylinder marking... I think I'm going to make it even MORE obvious this week... I think I'm going to go into the vinyl graphics shop, and have them make up 2 set's (2 each per tank) of my initials in 1-3" tall lettering to be put on 2 "sides" of the tanks... If someone now mis grabs my tank, with clearly identifible content stickers, EAN Nitrox VIP stickers (times 2, if we add the "correct" sticker according to nameless shop), being a different material than most tanks in service in the PNW (steels), different color than the rental fleet of my shop (all unpainted AL, or clear coated), a different color than any other AL I've seen in use in the area) and with my initials clearly marked in large letters. They deffinately deserve what they get.

Also, I don't typically dive on boats, but when I do, my tanks usually stand out. Most divers here dive Steel tanks, but everyone seems to keep each others tanks straight. Also I have yet to dive at any shore site where I've seen tanks which look like mine. Also my tanks remain locked in my car, until I change them, at which point they immediately go into the car (old) and onto the BC (new), if someone winds up with my tank, they've overlooked some very obvious signs, or stolen it from my locked vehicle, or off my BC.

 

[DeepScuba]

Hey PT, yes I have worked with OW students, (But not 30:1 ratio, that's bad).

You're right, I never dove in MB.

But I LOVE poking fun at Winter-peg! It was fun in the summer (2 days of bad skiing), but beyond that, it certainly wasn't my cup of tea.

Single 80 to 365.........I usually use my 50cf for that depth, but I put the BS bands on it for those dives.

You have already been given wisdom by the likes of MHK etc. You aren't open to this wisdom, and as such, I can't help you.

As always, you are more than welcome to do whatever you want, the scuba police aren't gonna stop you, and I wouldn't begin to try either.

Regards.

 

[padiscubapro]

Recently I've taken a Nitrox course (though I still have the dives to finish for my c-card).

Just prior to taking the class I had bought brand new AL80's (my first tanks) after starting the class, I had my shop where I'm doing the class with, fix them up for Nitrox service. They were still new and had only been filled at my shop, who uses a stick for nitrox, and a shop in Washington (to remain nameless) who uses continuous blending. Both shops from my understanding would then have plain air, that is as clean as nitrox, due to it all coming through the same lines, etc.

As for putting them into nitrox service, the valves were rebuilt, and new VIP stickers were aded which state an EANx VIP Inspection.

I've since had them filled at both my shop and the other nameless shop a few times without incident.

This last weekend at the nameless shop, I was told my VIP stickers were no good, and I had to have a different one which stated...

"This tank and valve have passed a visual inspection which conforms to standards set by the scuba diving industry.

this tank and valve have been cleaned for premix. Oxygen content between 22% and 40% Punch here X

This tank and valve have been cleaned in accordance with "O2 Standards" Punch here X"

The guy in the shop filling my tanks with straight 21% (what I wanted anyways) proceeded to rip my content stickers off (which said 21% already) And told me the VIP stickers which are green and yellow, and say EANx VIP or something along those lines wouldn't do squat for me.

He showed me this sticker and gave me one to show my shop.

Upon returning home I went into my shop, and talked to him, knowing fair well my tanks were fine for Nitrox. The owner looked at the sticker (which BTW is from Trident) and proceeded to tell me there are NO "Scuba Diving Industry" standards as the sticker states... there are NOAA standards, and the Compressed Gas Assocation standards, and possibly others, but NO standards state the sticker HAS to say anything about being for premix, just that it's good for Nitrox, OR PP filling/O2 service, should that be the case.

My shop is going to talk to this other shop, mainly as he's gotten them to fill Nitrox tanks with similar markings (only exception is them having the big Nitrox band, which i won't get, and don't want) many times. And the fact that I've had mine filled with 21% with the same markings at least once, without having an issue raised. My friend has had steels filled with EAN there, without anything BUT a Nitrox band, not EAN VIP stickers... etc.

Hopefully they will resolve the issue, if not I'm going to have to get my shop to order me a handful of the stickers the other shop showed me, or a similar sticker from IANTD and we will stick them on there to keep from having problems again.


I don't appreciate having my content stickers ripped off of tanks I payed to have set up for Nitrox, particularly when the teacing in the nitrox class means the next time you get Nitrox fills, you gotta get a visual because that is an indicator of being filled with air which isn't Nitrox clean/compatible

Unfortunately I pretty much have to appease the nameless shop, as it's at one of my primary dive sites with no other shop nearby... with multi-day diving, I will have to get fills from them, or if I didn't get a fill before driving up there... However, to drive 3-4 hours to a dive site, and find I can use Nitrox, is NOT a good thing. I would gladly get fills elsewhere if need be, and if it continues to be an issue I will make sure to get EAN before heading up, though I belive they charge less for EAN than my own shop does. (go figure)


Anyone else had similar issues or problems? PS, if you are from the area and really must know which shop, and/or person at the shop, please PM me, and I will tell, but they are a good shop and I don't want to give them a bad name... just the one guy was being a particularly anal pain in the rear this weekend.

1) you should get th exact policies for fills from the station in question..

Usually the label should just have to say whether its for oxygen service or premix (padi uses these)

Whether or not the valve has been oxygen serviced

Many insurance policies require fills only to those cylinders meeting the requirement of their host agencies insurance policy. Most require at minimum NOAA labeling which states cylinder was/was not cleaned with NITROX lettering painted on or a decal wrap.

(this means for many, tanks labeling per GUE/DIR guidelines can't be filled by many shops without violating their insurance policies (unless they get a policy that doesn't require it) many don't even read their policies and don't know they violate it ) some are just tank monkies and are just doing what they think is right or don't care...

2) follow them if you wish to get fills

for example I will not fill any Nitrox cylinder unless its been oxygen cleaned, is labeled as such and has a Nitrox Wrap decal even if I fill it from a banked mix.

Cylinders labeled with Deco mix wraps or Trimix Decals don't need the Nitrox Wrap.

If I suspect its been filled with non-oxygen compatible gas, I will not fill without the cylinder being recleaned.

When do I suspect it...
-last contents analysis says 32% and tank has less than stated
-contents tag not filled out
-person tells me the tank was filled at such and such shop ect..

 

[MikeFerrara]

I would predict that as "mixed" gasses become the norm rather than the acception the nitrox wrap will go away, as it largely has in the tech community, because it doesn't tell you anything. In the mean time, as long as so many divers and shops are totally ignorant on the subject the big nitrox stickers will be around and some shops will require them.

As far as vis and O2 clean stickers there are a bunch of them on the market. Some are not clear about exactly what they're telling you so some shops may not accept them.

 

[Genesis]

A VIS sticker does not have to be yellow and green either. Color is irrelavent. I've seen ones that look kinda like a dive flag, plain white/black lettered "wraps" (for the neck of the tank), ones that are clearly "branded" with the store's identity, etc. The common ones I see a lot of are the "rounded" ones that go around the tank neck and the ones made by some of the big "supply houses" (e.g. Trident, etc) which are typically yellow and green with the punch-outs for O2 status.

If the sticker is silent on the O2 cleaning issue then the tank is not O2 service rated and can be filled only with premix to 40%.

 

[WillAbbott]

Ok.

So here are the stickers in question.

Sticker A:

Sticker B:

The top one, is our dive shop VIS sticker. The main difference between it and our normal one, is it is in nitrox colors as opposed to red and white, and says EANx (there may be other differences, but I don't have a normal vis sticker around to be able to tell)

The problem with nameless shop was that my vis sticker didn't have the wording of the sticker B. Obviously we know the 02 clean isn't on my shops sticker, but was it really necissary to have the wording about premix, if nitrox is mentioned?

Also the BIGGEST gripe in my oppinion, Is not that a tank was not necissarily "properly" labled. Its that this tech has filled our shops tanks with the same VIS sticker, only our rental tanks have bands without incidence many a times.

his problem with my tanks were that they didn't say, written out. "good for premix of 21-40%" Well neither does a nitrox band. Anyone can buy and slap a nitrox band on a cylinder... getting a nitrox vis sticker can be a bit more difficult (not necissarily though)

It's also the fact that he has filled (and I've seen it) countless numbers of tanks which DON'T say "good for premix..." like he wanted mine to say.


The MAJOR issue isn't in the proper lableing (though there seems to be vast differences throughout the industry, go figure, no surprise here) But in how hypocritical this shop employee/fill station operator was. He wouldn't cut me ANY slack, if I had asked for it (which I didn't because I only wanted air) but would only give me a hard time, even though he has filled tanks with Nitrox, which are missing the same information he was complaining about mine missing. Now does that make sense to you?

A VIS sticker does not have to be yellow and green either.

No they don't many aren't that color, though both the ones in question have those colors. Our shops just happen to be that color, most likely to add an additional more obvious way to distinguish them from non EAN VIP Stickers. It's always obvious when the color is different than your normal, everyday sticker.

I think most the shops around here use red and white dive flag stickers of the state or similar anyways (that is what I've seen the most of when I've seen VIP stickers on tanks) if so, a green and yellow one is an obvious sign of being different.


Maybe I should have bands made for my tank which say "Breathe this and DIE!" or "Not air" or "Breathing gas other than air... Breathe and die"

 

[MikeFerrara]

I would have accepted sticker A especially for air (who cares?) but it is kind of bogus. What is an EANx inspection program?

The other sticker, IMO, is much clearer. Although, even here, just what are scuba industry standards? When you refer to standards you had better say who's.

Generally, agencies recommend O2 compatable O-rings and lube (1/2 of the O2 serice equation) even for mixes 40% and below so that would constitute "cleaned for premix"?

 

[WillAbbott]

Although, even here, just what are scuba industry standards? When you refer to standards you had better say who's.

Thats exactly what my shop said... who's standards are they refering to. So even the sticker the nameless shop says I have to have, has some holes in it.

And I agree our stickers do sort of have a lacking information feeling (esspecially in contrast with sticker B or IANTD version)

However, who was I at the time to argue with the shop owner... he has been diving long before me, and has been in business at least a few years. If his stickers were lacking why has namless shop not said anything until now (after numerous fills of tanks with the same sticker) and why hasn't any other shop had issues with it.

Generally, agencies recommend O2 compatable O-rings and lube (1/2 of the O2 serice equation) even for mixes 40% and below so that would constitute "cleaned for premix"?

That is probably what and why my shop said I needed a valve rebuild done... he probably prefers to have the valve with O2 components.


I'm sure my shop will resolve it with the other shop, wether I need to buy new/different stickers or they come to an understanding.

 

[MikeS]

If PADI is including something then ok, I stand corrected on that account, but then I accuse them of false and misleading statements, since the "band" is simply not relavent.

Does this mean you're not always right? Of course it was someone elses fault you were wrong. :biggrin2:

Mike