Nitrox VIP Sticker not good enough?

[DeepScuba]

Yeah you're right. you actaully said OVER 30 students.

SO we got 5 or 6 Instr/DMs trying to herd a gaggle of 30 students into the water.......and BS Bands are on your mind!!!!

heheheh, that's a good one!!!

What do you know about da facts? You lost the BS Bands arguement long ago! And you're still whining!

Oh yeah, I can guarantee even in your stretching of the dive site, you don't have your "newbs" anywhere's NEAR that 365ft area.

But of course given how it looks like you boys conduct training......you just might!

Scary man, just scary.

Your BS band insistance is hilarious!!!!

Thanks for the entertainment! Really!

 

[Genesis]

Again, that only works IF all tanks are drained so that they start at a known point (empty!) before being filled at that station, AND that station is incapable of filling anything other than air.

Such a station must then REFUSE to fill a Nitrox-banded tank (which, unless the tank is O2 clean, is BS - Air is just EANx21.)

However, what good does that do for a station that fills air AND Nitrox? Two whips (assuming premix), next to one another. How do you prevent the accidental filling of the tank with the wrong hose? For the Nitrox user, you prevent it when the analysis is done and the FO2 doesn't check with expected.

But for the air user, there is no protection against such a mistake. Indeed, its even worse in many fill stations, in that the SAME FILL HOSES are used. One here in town has only the LINE VALVES on the panel to prevent such an error from taking place!

The process contains no such protection. Further, for nitrox users, the tank band provides no such protection either, because they are already analyzing their gas and looking for that contents sticker.

So out of the three failure scenarios, we protect only one, when we could protect all three.

A process that would do so would be:

1. For a station that fills only air, ALL TANKS MUST BE DRAINED before being refilled, AND they get a contents sticker that says "FO2 21%, FN2 79%". Problem solved for them. Now the tank that gets "messed with" while outside of their control is no risk, and they are labelling what they put in there.

2. For the station that fills air and anything besides, all tanks must be ANALYZED post-filling (including purported "air" tanks!), and any discrepancies require dumping of the contents and starting over. They must also be tagged appropriately post-filling. For an AIR fill the fill station operator can do the analysis and mark the tank. For a Nitrox tank standards say that either you must do it or you must sign for it (as the customer.)

Note that nowhere does a "band" appear in this protocol, yet it covers ALL of the potential failure modes and protects against all of them.

Further, this protocol protects the DIVER against inadvertantly getting a "hot" tank. Yes, it requires that people look. And? Right now we not only don't look at the dive site, we don't look when we're filling the tanks!

I bet hundreds of inadvertant "nitrox dives" are done every year by air divers who are blissfully unaware that a mistake was made in filling the tank they have on their back - since they are simply never checked, and more and more air stations are banking premix with only a line valve between the air and nitrox sides of the panel.

 

[WillAbbott]

I tend to think of myself as sort of neutral in the band/no band argument.

I can see each side... I can see that if everyone follows procedure, than nothing but air should ever go in an air cylinder.

I can also see genesis's point, of how do we know for sure it is air.


Mistakes happen, we all know this... murphys law states "whatever can happen will happen" therefore going by this, we MUST assume that an air tank can and will contain nitrox, unless verified, or filled in a way it can only recive 21%.

we must also asume that there are "bad apples" who will fill tanks with gases which shouldn't be in them. Helium, higher O2, etc.

There is no procedure (which I see in place) which could stop a person from taking a rental tank, to use as a stage bottle, fill it with hypoxic trimix and either lable it (or a label falls off) and return it with minimal or no use... now what do we have? We have an air cylinder, who contains a gas which is unsafe to breathe at the surface... this is a far worse scenario than one of an air tank with 30-32% O2 content.

We must assume that a tank can and will get contaminents on EVERY fill performed. We must assume the contents are unknown unless personnaly observing the fill and analyzing.

I think it should be standard practice for a shop to drain every air cylinder, and refil. That way they know for sure it contains air. It's thier butts if someone returns a cylinder with hypoxic or nitrox mix in a cylinder for air, and someone gets hurt or dies.


In a sport which can easily take life, we must always assume the worst case scenario. I think this is mainly what brought about GI to start DIR. His buddy dies, and he starts thinking of what if this, and what if that? We need to remedy any and all doubt.

Some of this is taught in BOW. What happens if you can't surface, you ditch your weights and take a hit if need be. a chamber ride is better than drowning.

I think though it could go to far (we need to keep it within reason, no what if I get attacked by a shark, drug down to 300', run out of air, with a drysuit, and bc failure, and a deco obligation) keep it to real world scenarios.

But the fact remains to some extent we must plan for the worst. How many instructors do you know who carry 100% Emergency O2? Now contrast that to how many of them have actually needed it, or plan to use it? All instructors hope to never need it while teaching a class, but it's STUPID to not have it there.

We all carry spare fin, mask, snorkle straps, spare bulbs, batteries, etc. These are minor issues, why when a serious issue comes up, do we say oh it has no band, it's safe? we must assume the tank contains bad gas when it comes to the shop, and drain it, and refill it with good gas.

In fact, I may bring this up with our shop, to see it implimented if it isn't already... rental air cylinders should be drained, and refilled.... obvioulsy in a nitrox shop, it takes only a mater of a few extra mins to analyze the tank and make sure extra O2 didn't get in there some how.

People don't always live by the "rules" and many of the scuba industry rules are more of guidlines than rules, or laws. How many people do you see speeding day in and day out? Nothing stops me, from saving money by renting an air tank, PP mixing O2 into it, and getting it topped off with air. When I take it to the shop, they just fill her up.



From now on, I say all tanks should be labled with a band, to read something like this (pending lawyer approval)

"this tank contains a compressed breathing gas.
Gas contents may contain any percentage of O2, N2, HE.
Do not use this tank if it is not yours, you are the renter/leasee, you have not personnaly verified the contents, or have filled it yourself.
Any misuse, or failure to abide by these guidlines, is your own failure, and constitues a lack of liability on the owners behalf.
Owner takes no responsibilty for your lack of abiding by these rules and following proceedure.
Death, DCS, CNS, hypoxia, or any other condition reciveived from using this gas, is the responsibility, and liabilty of the user.
You and you alone can prevent any condition you may recieve from using this gas which is not what was intended for the dive.

All action to be taken against the owner, or leasor of this tank, must be directed to thier attorney at 1-800-555-1212

Thank you and have a wonderful day of diving"

 

[Spectre]

Any misuse, or failure to abide by these guidlines, is your own failure, and constitues a lack of liability on the owners behalf.
Owner takes no responsibilty for your lack of abiding by these rules and following proceedure.[/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

I'm thinking of just sticking biohazard stickers on my tanks.

 

[DeepScuba]

Happy 4000th post Spectre!

You know the two guys from the "What if" System are still gonna say, "what if" they don't see the biohazard sticker!

It's a sad sad thread

 

[ckharlan66]

I'm thinking of just sticking biohazard stickers on my tanks.

We are talking about the air in your tank....not your breath.

Chad

 

[MikeFerrara]

Again, that only works IF all tanks are drained so that they start at a known point (empty!) before being filled at that station, AND that station is incapable of filling anything other than air.

Such a station must then REFUSE to fill a Nitrox-banded tank (which, unless the tank is O2 clean, is BS - Air is just EANx21.)

In fact both fill stations within 50 miles of me will refuse to fill tanks labeled for nitrox. Maybe they don't need to but they don't care.

However, what good does that do for a station that fills air AND Nitrox? Two whips (assuming premix), next to one another. How do you prevent the accidental filling of the tank with the wrong hose? For the Nitrox user, you prevent it when the analysis is done and the FO2 doesn't check with expected.

But for the air user, there is no protection against such a mistake. Indeed, its even worse in many fill stations, in that the SAME FILL HOSES are used. One here in town has only the LINE VALVES on the panel to prevent such an error from taking place!

The process contains no such protection. Further, for nitrox users, the tank band provides no such protection either, because they are already analyzing their gas and looking for that contents sticker.

Certainly these failures are possible with the design of some fill stations (not mine though).

So out of the three failure scenarios, we protect only one, when we could protect all three.



A process that would do so would be:

1. For a station that fills only air, ALL TANKS MUST BE DRAINED before being refilled, AND they get a contents sticker that says "FO2 21%, FN2 79%". Problem solved for them. Now the tank that gets "messed with" while outside of their control is no risk, and they are labelling what they put in there.

2. For the station that fills air and anything besides, all tanks must be ANALYZED post-filling (including purported "air" tanks!), and any discrepancies require dumping of the contents and starting over. They must also be tagged appropriately post-filling. For an AIR fill the fill station operator can do the analysis and mark the tank. For a Nitrox tank standards say that either you must do it or you must sign for it (as the customer.)

Note that nowhere does a "band" appear in this protocol, yet it covers ALL of the potential failure modes and protects against all of them.

Further, this protocol protects the DIVER against inadvertantly getting a "hot" tank. Yes, it requires that people look. And? Right now we not only don't look at the dive site, we don't look when we're filling the tanks!

I bet hundreds of inadvertant "nitrox dives" are done every year by air divers who are blissfully unaware that a mistake was made in filling the tank they have on their back - since they are simply never checked, and more and more air stations are banking premix with only a line valve between the air and nitrox sides of the panel.

The one failure that you didn't address is that of an OW diver grabbing a rental tank off a rack full of tanks on a boat and using it regarless of what that small contents tag says because they were looking for a big green wrap. Or...maybe they see the contents tag and the FO2 designation just doesn't mean anything to them.

If you want to make something visually detectable with reliability you make it big and bright and that's what the green sticker that says "NITROX" is for.

Maybe if "air gets to be the acception rather than the rule we ditch the nitrox wrap and put "AIR" wraps on air tanks.

 

[MikeFerrara]

There is no procedure (which I see in place) which could stop a person from taking a rental tank, to use as a stage bottle, fill it with hypoxic trimix and either lable it (or a label falls off) and return it with minimal or no use... now what do we have? We have an air cylinder, who contains a gas which is unsafe to breathe at the surface... this is a far worse scenario than one of an air tank with 30-32% O2 content.

Lets think about this. Most divers using hypoxic stages own as many tanks as a dive shop. LOL. They'll want a DIN valve more than likely and how many of those do you see on rental tanks? If they are doing a dive with hypoxic bottom gas that requires stages they'll be using two and maybe even three decompression gasses also. They will be ver careful about tank marking or they won't be back to return the tank. I doubt they'll spend what it costs to fill this tank and return it unused and if they did the diver who rents it next will talk like mickey mouse after he breaths on it to check his reg. Also while this tank poor tech diver is pulling his stage rigging off the tank it'll probably cross his mind to prepare the tank for return.[/QUOTE]



I think it should be standard practice for a shop to drain every air cylinder, and refil. That way they know for sure it contains air. It's thier butts if someone returns a cylinder with hypoxic or nitrox mix in a cylinder for air, and someone gets hurt or dies.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't want to stand in that line with every one waiting for tanks to drain. If there was much left in the tank or worse yet a set of doubles it could take all day to drain them.

Some of this is taught in BOW. What happens if you can't surface, you ditch your weights and take a hit if need be. a chamber ride is better than drowning.

The danger here is spitting out your lungs and a chamber won't help. Why wouldn't you be able to surface? You shouldn't ever be that heavy in recreational diving.


In fact, I may bring this up with our shop, to see it implimented if it isn't already... rental air cylinders should be drained, and refilled.... obvioulsy in a nitrox shop, it takes only a mater of a few extra mins to analyze the tank and make sure extra O2 didn't get in there some how.[/QUOTE]

When you bring this up notice how they turn red and cuss when you suggest that one of their customers might be shooting O2 into their air tank. Also ask what they're going to want to raise the rental price to if they have to waist the time it takes to drain tanks.

It might be a good reason to think about only renting tanks when they will be use under direct supervision though

 

[WillAbbott]

You know what, I had a big long reply all typed up, and got to thinking "forget it"

Murphy said it best "whatever can happen, will happen" and it does, every day.

Accidents happen every day where they shouldn't have, or there is no explanation as to why.

Your all right, I'm wrong, I always am... Everyone happy now?

As for this thread, I think we've all gotten SO far off the original point, that it isn't funny. I'm tired of it, it's anoying, it's way to long, and contains to much fighting.

I think we are all correct, yet all wrong. Go figure. HA!

The truth is, I've had an instructor with bad air within the last few years (thought that didn't happen anymore, HA!) I've seen brand new tanks, which were in nitrox service, opened up for a visual (after only being a couple months old) in order to twin them up, and have all sorts of garbage inside them, requiring tumbling. Things happen.

If we wanted to be as safe as could be with our gas, the only way to truely do so, would be do our own fills, have regular professional gas analysis done, to check for contaminents and what not in the compressor flow. Anaylize each tank we pump, and never let our tanks be used outside our own supervision, or if we do, perform a complete drain, visual, O2 service if using for PP, and refill when it returns.

Until then, I guess we will continue to play russian roulette and trust the people, and shops filling our tanks, with our lives.

Continue to fight and argue all you guys want. I started the thread, and I'm giving up on it.

 

[pipedope]

If you are trying to protect the idiots then a banner is not going to do it.

The 'grab a tank' idiots will grab a tank regardless of marking.

What you need is a locking cover over the valve.

They might even get past this but NOT by accident.