here in south korea we use green tape or green zipties around the tank valve and put some tape with the required info along with our name on the tank body. So here were not required to use stickers............ i guess
Nitrox Tank Labels?
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Just as an aside, several folks have brought up the "as long as it has an O2 clean visual sticker" mantra, which raises some questions. If your tank is O2 clean, how often do you have it recleaned? Does your shop require an O2 cleaning before they will put a green visual inspection sticker on it each year? If not, how does your shop know that the tank is O2 clean? If you (or your shop) are O2 cleaning your tanks, what procedure is being used?
The bumper sticker disagreement doesn't seem like something worth going to the mat over, to me. If you're buying gas from a reputable shop, it isn't worth risking your relationship with them to fight over the price of an EAN sticker. If your shop isn't reputable, why are you buying gas from them in the first place? Strictly speaking, the sticker isn't necessary but it isn't going to kill you, either, and the dive shop has a very defensible position. Rather than getting feisty with the shop over the issue, maybe a long-term educational process would work better - start by learning as much as you can about gas blending, tank cleaning and inspecting, fill station protocols, etc., and then gently try to share that knowledge with the shop owner.
Here's part of where the bumper sticker standard came from:
Per NOAA standards, the bumper sticker is required, unless you paint the same information on your tanks. Additionally, an annual O2 cleaning is required before putting an "O2 clean" VIP sticker on a tank. Ouch.
More "requirements"
The guy at the fill station may be a dive shop monkey, but he's probably a trained monkey. Before deciding to engage him in an argument, it's a good idea to double-check and make sure that your knuckles aren't dragging on the floor, too.
Sign me,
A PSI Visual Inspector and TDI Advanced Gas Blender - and sometimes-DSM.
The bumper sticker disagreement doesn't seem like something worth going to the mat over, to me. If you're buying gas from a reputable shop, it isn't worth risking your relationship with them to fight over the price of an EAN sticker. If your shop isn't reputable, why are you buying gas from them in the first place? Strictly speaking, the sticker isn't necessary but it isn't going to kill you, either, and the dive shop has a very defensible position. Rather than getting feisty with the shop over the issue, maybe a long-term educational process would work better - start by learning as much as you can about gas blending, tank cleaning and inspecting, fill station protocols, etc., and then gently try to share that knowledge with the shop owner.
Here's part of where the bumper sticker standard came from:
NOAA Diving Manual, Fourth Edition
15.12.2 Identification of Nitrox Cylinders
One method of identifying nitrox cylinders is the use of a yellow cylinder with the top painted green down four inches from the shoulder of the cylinder. Stenciled on the body of the cylinder in two-inch high letters is the word "Nitrox."
Another acceptable method is to use a commercially available label that surrounds the top of the cylinder. On yellow cylingers a four-inch green band with the words "Nitrox," Oxygen-Enriched Air," "Enriched Air" or "Enriched Air Nitrox" or the equivalent are printed in yellow or white letters and placed just below the shoulder of the cylinders.
For cylinders that are not yellow, the same green band will have a one-inch yellow band on both top and bottom. A cylinder that is properly prepared and labeled should not be filled with any mixture other than Nitrox.
15.12.3 Cylinder Label for Oxygen Cleaning
This label (Edit - Image omitted. For reference, the NOAA Oxygen Service Certification (their annual VIP) sticker reads: This cylinder and valve have been cleaned and visually inspected in accordance with NOAA specifications.) or a MIL STD 1330 label is applied to the cylinder after it has been cleaned and placed into oxygen service. These labels indicate when the cylinder was cleaned and its level of cleanliness. Some nitrox filling systems require a cylnder to be cleaned for oxygen service before being filled since high-pressure oxygen is in contact with the valve and the cylinder when it is being filled. Other systems do not use oxygen for filling. The label distinguies whether the cylinder has been cleaned for oxygen service. A cylinder that does not have an "oxygen service" certification should not be filled by partial pressure methods because during the mixing procedure the cylinder would be exposed to 100% oxygen.
The label only certifies that the cylinder has been cleaned for the date indicated. If the cylinder has been contaminated any time after the inspection date, it should be immediately marked "CONTAMINATED." After cleaning it should be re-labeled. Contamination can occur by having the cylinder filled with air from an oil-lubricated compressor. It is prudent to inspect and re-clean scuba cylinders annually. NOAA requires annual visual inspection of all scuba cylinders.
15.12.2 Identification of Nitrox Cylinders
One method of identifying nitrox cylinders is the use of a yellow cylinder with the top painted green down four inches from the shoulder of the cylinder. Stenciled on the body of the cylinder in two-inch high letters is the word "Nitrox."
Another acceptable method is to use a commercially available label that surrounds the top of the cylinder. On yellow cylingers a four-inch green band with the words "Nitrox," Oxygen-Enriched Air," "Enriched Air" or "Enriched Air Nitrox" or the equivalent are printed in yellow or white letters and placed just below the shoulder of the cylinders.
For cylinders that are not yellow, the same green band will have a one-inch yellow band on both top and bottom. A cylinder that is properly prepared and labeled should not be filled with any mixture other than Nitrox.
15.12.3 Cylinder Label for Oxygen Cleaning
This label (Edit - Image omitted. For reference, the NOAA Oxygen Service Certification (their annual VIP) sticker reads: This cylinder and valve have been cleaned and visually inspected in accordance with NOAA specifications.) or a MIL STD 1330 label is applied to the cylinder after it has been cleaned and placed into oxygen service. These labels indicate when the cylinder was cleaned and its level of cleanliness. Some nitrox filling systems require a cylnder to be cleaned for oxygen service before being filled since high-pressure oxygen is in contact with the valve and the cylinder when it is being filled. Other systems do not use oxygen for filling. The label distinguies whether the cylinder has been cleaned for oxygen service. A cylinder that does not have an "oxygen service" certification should not be filled by partial pressure methods because during the mixing procedure the cylinder would be exposed to 100% oxygen.
The label only certifies that the cylinder has been cleaned for the date indicated. If the cylinder has been contaminated any time after the inspection date, it should be immediately marked "CONTAMINATED." After cleaning it should be re-labeled. Contamination can occur by having the cylinder filled with air from an oil-lubricated compressor. It is prudent to inspect and re-clean scuba cylinders annually. NOAA requires annual visual inspection of all scuba cylinders.
Per NOAA standards, the bumper sticker is required, unless you paint the same information on your tanks. Additionally, an annual O2 cleaning is required before putting an "O2 clean" VIP sticker on a tank. Ouch.
More "requirements"
TDI Nitrox Gas Blender Manual
Nitrox Cylinder Labelling
The general industry standard for labelling nitrox cylinders that have an oxygen content greater than 21% is to put a four inch wide green band completely around the top of a yellow cylinder and in one inch green lettering down the side print NITROX or NITROX ONLY. Another option to identify a cylinder that is not yellow (without having to paint it), is to attach to the top of the cyldiner a six inch green band that has a one inch top and bottom yellow border. In the center green portion of the band is printed in yellow, NITROX, ENRICHED AIR NITROS OR SAFE AIR NITROX. Variations of the labelling techniques listed above will be seen, but most importantly, the labelling must be clear and visible to prevent mistaken use as air.
Nitrox Cylinder Labelling
The general industry standard for labelling nitrox cylinders that have an oxygen content greater than 21% is to put a four inch wide green band completely around the top of a yellow cylinder and in one inch green lettering down the side print NITROX or NITROX ONLY. Another option to identify a cylinder that is not yellow (without having to paint it), is to attach to the top of the cyldiner a six inch green band that has a one inch top and bottom yellow border. In the center green portion of the band is printed in yellow, NITROX, ENRICHED AIR NITROS OR SAFE AIR NITROX. Variations of the labelling techniques listed above will be seen, but most importantly, the labelling must be clear and visible to prevent mistaken use as air.
The guy at the fill station may be a dive shop monkey, but he's probably a trained monkey. Before deciding to engage him in an argument, it's a good idea to double-check and make sure that your knuckles aren't dragging on the floor, too.
Sign me,
A PSI Visual Inspector and TDI Advanced Gas Blender - and sometimes-DSM.
reefraff:Just as an aside, several folks have brought up the "as long as it has an O2 clean visual sticker" mantra, which raises some questions. If your tank is O2 clean, how often do you have it recleaned? Does your shop require an O2 cleaning before they will put a green visual inspection sticker on it each year? If not, how does your shop know that the tank is O2 clean? If you (or your shop) are O2 cleaning your tanks, what procedure is being used?
The bumper sticker disagreement doesn't seem like something worth going to the mat over, to me. If you're buying gas from a reputable shop, it isn't worth risking your relationship with them to fight over the price of an EAN sticker. If your shop isn't reputable, why are you buying gas from them in the first place? Strictly speaking, the sticker isn't necessary but it isn't going to kill you, either, and the dive shop has a very defensible position. Rather than getting feisty with the shop over the issue, maybe a long-term educational process would work better - start by learning as much as you can about gas blending, tank cleaning and inspecting, fill station protocols, etc., and then gently try to share that knowledge with the shop owner.
Here's part of where the bumper sticker standard came from:
NOAA Diving Manual, Fourth Edition
15.12.2 Identification of Nitrox Cylinders
One method of identifying nitrox cylinders is the use of a yellow cylinder with the top painted green down four inches from the shoulder of the cylinder. Stenciled on the body of the cylinder in two-inch high letters is the word "Nitrox."
Another acceptable method is to use a commercially available label that surrounds the top of the cylinder. On yellow cylingers a four-inch green band with the words "Nitrox," Oxygen-Enriched Air," "Enriched Air" or "Enriched Air Nitrox" or the equivalent are printed in yellow or white letters and placed just below the shoulder of the cylinders.
For cylinders that are not yellow, the same green band will have a one-inch yellow band on both top and bottom. A cylinder that is properly prepared and labeled should not be filled with any mixture other than Nitrox.
15.12.3 Cylinder Label for Oxygen Cleaning
This label (Edit - Image omitted. For reference, the NOAA Oxygen Service Certification (their annual VIP) sticker reads: This cylinder and valve have been cleaned and visually inspected in accordance with NOAA specifications.) or a MIL STD 1330 label is applied to the cylinder after it has been cleaned and placed into oxygen service. These labels indicate when the cylinder was cleaned and its level of cleanliness. Some nitrox filling systems require a cylnder to be cleaned for oxygen service before being filled since high-pressure oxygen is in contact with the valve and the cylinder when it is being filled. Other systems do not use oxygen for filling. The label distinguies whether the cylinder has been cleaned for oxygen service. A cylinder that does not have an "oxygen service" certification should not be filled by partial pressure methods because during the mixing procedure the cylinder would be exposed to 100% oxygen.
The label only certifies that the cylinder has been cleaned for the date indicated. If the cylinder has been contaminated any time after the inspection date, it should be immediately marked "CONTAMINATED." After cleaning it should be re-labeled. Contamination can occur by having the cylinder filled with air from an oil-lubricated compressor. It is prudent to inspect and re-clean scuba cylinders annually. NOAA requires annual visual inspection of all scuba cylinders.
Per NOAA standards, the bumper sticker is required, unless you paint the same information on your tanks. Additionally, an annual O2 cleaning is required before putting an "O2 clean" VIP sticker on a tank. Ouch.
More "requirements"
TDI Nitrox Gas Blender Manual
Nitrox Cylinder Labelling
The general industry standard for labelling nitrox cylinders that have an oxygen content greater than 21% is to put a four inch wide green band completely around the top of a yellow cylinder and in one inch green lettering down the side print NITROX or NITROX ONLY. Another option to identify a cylinder that is not yellow (without having to paint it), is to attach to the top of the cyldiner a six inch green band that has a one inch top and bottom yellow border. In the center green portion of the band is printed in yellow, NITROX, ENRICHED AIR NITROS OR SAFE AIR NITROX. Variations of the labelling techniques listed above will be seen, but most importantly, the labelling must be clear and visible to prevent mistaken use as air.
The guy at the fill station may be a dive shop monkey, but he's probably a trained monkey. Before deciding to engage him in an argument, it's a good idea to double-check and make sure that your knuckles aren't dragging on the floor, too.
Sign me,
A PSI Visual Inspector and TDI Advanced Gas Blender - and sometimes-DSM.
Reefraff - thanks for reminding me of the NOAA standard. I also looked it up in the PADI Nitrox book and saw something similar.
As you very aptly put it - these are standards and not law. The shop where I get my regular fills only requires the O2 VIP and have stated that they prefer not have stickers all over the tank. They would also prefer not to see boots on the tank as well.
If the "shop monkey" had come back with this, then I would have had less problems. As it was I thought his answers showed a complete lack of understanding. This is typical of the information handed out by this particular shop and it makes me wonder what other errors occur. BTW - this same shop has stated in the past the PST tanks from the factory are not nitrox ready. This goes against what PST and other shops in my area say. Who is right?
Yes, I was (am) dragging my knuckles here and shouldn't have argued with him. If I didn't need the tanks for todays dive - then I would have waited for the shop I normally use to fill them.
I like the "WARNING: CUSTOM MIX - Check Contents Label" stickers.
All of the tanks I have that don't have plain air in them always have a contents label
and MOD on them.
As a gas blender I also pay attention to the VIP stickers and whether or not the
tanks are O2-clean. I'd rather not start an O2 fire, thank you very much. Oxygen
is the princess of gasses, but she does have a temper!
All of the tanks I have that don't have plain air in them always have a contents label
and MOD on them.
As a gas blender I also pay attention to the VIP stickers and whether or not the
tanks are O2-clean. I'd rather not start an O2 fire, thank you very much. Oxygen
is the princess of gasses, but she does have a temper!
The worls has changed and tank marking comdentions may need to change also.
All a nitrox bumper sticker tells you is that what's in the tank MAY not be air (21% O2, 79% N2). this might be useful if we assume that all tanks without a band have air and we don't need to verufy the contents.
Now days with so many fill stations pumping both air and nitrox and maybe even decompression gasses and trimix, IMO, the best thing to do is to always analyze and verify contents. the lack of a bumper sticker seems little guaranty that air is what's in the tank.
The most important piece of information you need about a gas, especially in the water, is the MOD and the big bumper sticker doesn't tell you anything about that. Worse yet, the MOD is often put in tiny, if even readable, hand writen letters on a very small contents tag. Useless. The MOD is what we need in big, bold and easily readable lettering.
Another good procedure is to have every one in the group know and sign off on every one elses gasses before diving. Remember some of their gas may just be for you.
I dived on a boat yesterday where this is actually a requirement and page 2 of your liability release is a sheet where you list the gasses you're using and it's signed off by those you are diving with.
The bottom line is there are two different issues. The first is to satisfy the policies of the fill station. Not much you can do there. It's their fill station so they make the decisions. They don't have to make sense and they don't have to be functional.
The other issue is knowing what you and those you're diving with are breathing and the policies of the fill station may not help you there.
I'm lucky enough that I do most of my own filling so I do what I want. Most of the other places that I get fills just give me what I ask for and don't second guess the way I have the tank marked. One other place where I get fills once in a while only pumps air and they won't fill a tank that has a bumper sticker so it's a good thing I don't use them.
All a nitrox bumper sticker tells you is that what's in the tank MAY not be air (21% O2, 79% N2). this might be useful if we assume that all tanks without a band have air and we don't need to verufy the contents.
Now days with so many fill stations pumping both air and nitrox and maybe even decompression gasses and trimix, IMO, the best thing to do is to always analyze and verify contents. the lack of a bumper sticker seems little guaranty that air is what's in the tank.
The most important piece of information you need about a gas, especially in the water, is the MOD and the big bumper sticker doesn't tell you anything about that. Worse yet, the MOD is often put in tiny, if even readable, hand writen letters on a very small contents tag. Useless. The MOD is what we need in big, bold and easily readable lettering.
Another good procedure is to have every one in the group know and sign off on every one elses gasses before diving. Remember some of their gas may just be for you.
I dived on a boat yesterday where this is actually a requirement and page 2 of your liability release is a sheet where you list the gasses you're using and it's signed off by those you are diving with.
The bottom line is there are two different issues. The first is to satisfy the policies of the fill station. Not much you can do there. It's their fill station so they make the decisions. They don't have to make sense and they don't have to be functional.
The other issue is knowing what you and those you're diving with are breathing and the policies of the fill station may not help you there.
I'm lucky enough that I do most of my own filling so I do what I want. Most of the other places that I get fills just give me what I ask for and don't second guess the way I have the tank marked. One other place where I get fills once in a while only pumps air and they won't fill a tank that has a bumper sticker so it's a good thing I don't use them.
MikeC:
I'm not even going to try to unless they offer me money. LOL
Ok then, here is my 2 PSI worth.
(Please excuse typos, the spell chkr is out on my PC) :11:
Most labeling requirements may not be for the diver using the EANx cylinder. They are, for the most part, for the benefit of the dive shop.
The liability insurance here in the US for a dive shop are very steep. The insurance for a dive shop pumping Nitrox are even higher and for mixed gases the insurance can be brutal.
Clear, straight forward labeling of a cylinder for nitrox use means the customer, YOU, is aware of his or her responcibilities when diving nitrox. This in conjunction with a nitrox c-card means the liability to the shop is reduced. The labeling of the cylinder means the fill tech knows if the tank is capable of filling with an O2 level above 21% safley. Or to put it another way, the fill tech is fairly certain he/she will get to go home in one piece tonight. (Yes I know cylinders dont blow often, but it dose happen, and if your handling say a hundred cylinders a day, every day, the possibility that you may catch a golden BB gets kinda high).
If you are unknown to the fill tech/LDS then they may be nervous filling your nitrox cylinder because they do not know you or the history of your cylinder the way the LDS that sold you the equipment will.
Many dive shops do not pump Nitrox because the increases to their liability insurance are no where near offset by the money they can make filling tanks.
When you take the cost of a nitrox compressor plus the cost of the cleaning for all the plumbing, combine it with the cost of ongoing maintenance and consumables (like pure O2) add in any local/state safety requirements and then divide that by the number of fills per year you will find that most dive shops LOOSE MONEY ON FILLS!!. :11:
So why do shops buy these expensive machines? Simple, they have to in order to remain competative. If Joes dive shop has a nitrox fill station and Bobs dive shop dose not, then Bob may go out of business. Why? Because Joes dive shop will get more customers even if those customers never dive with nitrox. A nitrox fill station is a competative advantage in a intensley competative industry.
As a last point if you have your EANx cylinder VIPd then the LDS is supposed to do the following:
Check/replace all O rings with EAN compatible ones lubricated with a O2 compatible material.
Check the interior and exterior of the cylinder for pits, dents, gouges etc.
If the cylinder is an AL one then an inspection of the neck is required.
Check the markings on the cylinder and the date of the last Hydro test.
Clean the interior of the tank with a degressing solution to make it ready for mixes <40%
Dry the cylinder, reassemble it and fill it to working pressure with Grade E air or better.
Place new VIP sticker and new Nitrox sticker on the cylinder in accordance with local laws.
Have a great dive all.
Paul.
(Please excuse typos, the spell chkr is out on my PC) :11:
Most labeling requirements may not be for the diver using the EANx cylinder. They are, for the most part, for the benefit of the dive shop.
The liability insurance here in the US for a dive shop are very steep. The insurance for a dive shop pumping Nitrox are even higher and for mixed gases the insurance can be brutal.
Clear, straight forward labeling of a cylinder for nitrox use means the customer, YOU, is aware of his or her responcibilities when diving nitrox. This in conjunction with a nitrox c-card means the liability to the shop is reduced. The labeling of the cylinder means the fill tech knows if the tank is capable of filling with an O2 level above 21% safley. Or to put it another way, the fill tech is fairly certain he/she will get to go home in one piece tonight. (Yes I know cylinders dont blow often, but it dose happen, and if your handling say a hundred cylinders a day, every day, the possibility that you may catch a golden BB gets kinda high).
If you are unknown to the fill tech/LDS then they may be nervous filling your nitrox cylinder because they do not know you or the history of your cylinder the way the LDS that sold you the equipment will.
Many dive shops do not pump Nitrox because the increases to their liability insurance are no where near offset by the money they can make filling tanks.
When you take the cost of a nitrox compressor plus the cost of the cleaning for all the plumbing, combine it with the cost of ongoing maintenance and consumables (like pure O2) add in any local/state safety requirements and then divide that by the number of fills per year you will find that most dive shops LOOSE MONEY ON FILLS!!. :11:
So why do shops buy these expensive machines? Simple, they have to in order to remain competative. If Joes dive shop has a nitrox fill station and Bobs dive shop dose not, then Bob may go out of business. Why? Because Joes dive shop will get more customers even if those customers never dive with nitrox. A nitrox fill station is a competative advantage in a intensley competative industry.
As a last point if you have your EANx cylinder VIPd then the LDS is supposed to do the following:
Check/replace all O rings with EAN compatible ones lubricated with a O2 compatible material.
Check the interior and exterior of the cylinder for pits, dents, gouges etc.
If the cylinder is an AL one then an inspection of the neck is required.
Check the markings on the cylinder and the date of the last Hydro test.
Clean the interior of the tank with a degressing solution to make it ready for mixes <40%
Dry the cylinder, reassemble it and fill it to working pressure with Grade E air or better.
Place new VIP sticker and new Nitrox sticker on the cylinder in accordance with local laws.
Have a great dive all.
Paul.
Aquawookie:
During the time I owned a shop I had insurance with 2 different companies. I went from pumping just air to pumping trimix, O2 and argon and it never had any effect on the cost of insurance.
The fill log pretty much takes care of this.
This in conjunction with a nitrox c-card means the liability to the shop is reduced. The labeling of the cylinder means the fill tech knows if the tank is capable of filling with an O2 level above 21% safley. Or to put it another way, the fill tech is fairly certain he/she will get to go home in one piece tonight. (Yes I know cylinders dont blow often, but it dose happen, and if your handling say a hundred cylinders a day, every day, the possibility that you may catch a golden BB gets kinda high).
[/QUOTE]
The VIP sticker takes care of this. Of course the only way to know how safe it is to pump O2 into a tank is to have full time control of the tank.
How does the one who sold you the tank know any more about who else fills it and how the tank is maintained?
Again this has not been my experience. What insurance company charges more if you sell nitrox. I had shop insurance with both Vicencia & Buckaly and Marsh and my premiums were uneffected by selling mixed gasses.
It can be almost impossible to cost-justify the cost of any fill station in an area where you don't sell lots of gas.
A couple of things here though. What is a nitrox compressor? I have a great fill station, I'm a blender and a blending instructor but I don't know what a nitrox compressor is.
No need to clean a tank (beyond what would be required for air) that is only going to be exposed to mixes below 40%.
Also Grade E air doesn't cut it. What most agencies call for is modified grade E.
fun2chase
Contributor
The Nitrox sticker does not prepare a shop to partial fill a tank. A tank can hold oxygen levels above 21% if a membrane is used. The only way a shop will partial fill a tank is with a current O2, vis, and hydro! The large Nitrox sticker that has to be removed each year to visually inspect a tank is merely a tax!
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