Nitrox Class Without Tables or Math...OK?

[The Chairman]

Let me ask you this, NetDoc....how do you teach your students to calculate SAC and minimum gas reserve/rock bottom?

Why would I do that in a NitrOx class? These are OPEN WATER divers. SAC, DAC and such are better suited to be discussed in an Advanced OW class and then expounded upon in a Master Diver class. Next, you'll want me covering deco procedures and how to run the hyperbaric chamber to boot! Time does not permit for EVERY diving topic to be discussed in this class.

It's obvious your NEEDS would not be met in this class. Why you feel that everyone else should be taught to YOUR NEEDS simply escapes me. There are many different reasons for diving including ego, fun, knowledge and adventure. To look down upon a diver merely because they have a different focus and agenda in their diving than you is merely egocentric. Who died and left you in charge of what is "OK" and what is not? There will always be a certain rigidity when discussing the essential curricula for any discipline. There is almost always more than one way to skin this cat.

 

[LSDeep]

Apart from the issues of whether it's a good idea or not, why is an Instructor being blamed for conducting a course that an agency produces? Surely, if people have complaints about this course they should be directed at SDI who produces it, not the instructor for giving it.

good point. and while you complain, complain to the rstc also, which sdi is a member of. also, if you think it is dangerous "dumbing down" of divers that might not have the inclination to research every thing to the bottom, but merely do a couple dives each year during vacation (thats by the way your diver who will not remember the formulas - simple as they might be) you should be able to produce some study that shows clearly how many more of this divers than average have accidents!?

I just looked at their site and apart from their Computer Nitrox Diver course they also have a plain Computer Diver course. It seems to me that if people are going to use computers then it's a good idea if they know how.

all sdi courses are computerbased, doesnt matter what level. the computer diver course is merely a course designed for ppl that did their courses with a more "traditional" agency and need some more comprehensive intro to their computers. a matter often ignored by many agencies.

As for tables in rec dive planning - I can't remember the last time I ever saw anyone using them on rec dives. I'm not saying that that is good.......just the reality.

couldnt agree more. you see them but it is rare. you see them more often with "vacation divers" logbook as a kind of useless dongle since they dont remember what to do with it and trust their diveguide and his diveplan anyway.

 

[serambin]

I guess the truth is that we all want to dive and live to dive again. Learning too much detail information means that the average diver forgets most of it between seasons or dives. The computer allows an incompetent diver to dive and survive. This doesn't depend on air or nitrox, but rather on their ability to use the (their) computer correctly.

Stan

 

[LSDeep]

Why would I do that in a NitrOx class? These are OPEN WATER divers. SAC, DAC and such are better suited to be discussed in an Advanced OW class and then expounded upon in a Master Diver class. Next, you'll want me covering deco procedures and how to run the hyperbaric chamber to boot! Time does not permit for EVERY diving topic to be discussed in this class.

It's obvious your NEEDS would not be met in this class. Why you feel that everyone else should be taught to YOUR NEEDS simply escapes me. There are many different reasons for diving including ego, fun, knowledge and adventure. To look down upon a diver merely because they have a different focus and agenda in their diving than you is merely egocentric. Who died and left you in charge of what is "OK" and what is not? There will always be a certain rigidity when discussing the essential curricula for any discipline. There is almost always more than one way to skin this cat.

surely you could design the "ultimate" dive course which takes a year to finish, includes 100 dives and 200hrs theory plus endless time in the pool where you see scuba gear the first time after another 100hrs of snorkeling (kind of like bsac ) and still people would find stuff thats missing etc.

in this day and age there are a multitude of agencies (and seemingly more every month) that cater to all levels of interest in diving from sporadic holiday diver over wannabe tekkie to serious tech and all shades in between. so why not simply choose the one that fulfills your needs and take it from there? if you like endless hours of theory to dive nitrox 36 to 90ft for 20min i am sure you will find a class to do exactly that for you. if you decide that you want the basics to dive with nitrox (that would include nitrox 21) during vacation with a guide and dont spend this time, well there is a class for you too .

 

[LSDeep]

I guess the truth is that we all want to dive and live to dive again. Learning too much detail information means that the average diver forgets most of it between seasons or dives. The computer allows an incompetent diver to dive and survive. This doesn't depend on air or nitrox, but rather on their ability to use the (their) computer correctly.

Stan

i would see that the same way and if and when somebodies interest grows and he wants to get "deeper" into it, there are many ways to do so with more comprehensive courses. heck when i started downhill mountain biking i would have possibly stopped before i started if ppl would have forced me to endless classes. one of the deseases of the diving industry is to overcomplicate things permanently and this way to put ppl off.
by the way i wonder who actually taught all the ppl that design this courses for us and make them the must have!!!??? .

 

[Michael Schlink]

"The computer allows an incompetent diver to dive and survive" Stan you can't be serious. Computers have imformation that you can use while diving, they don't have much to do with a divers survival or not. And as far as an incompetent diver goes, what's incompetent?? And who is the judge-you?

 

[LSDeep]

plus they have games for that boring deco stops and even downloadable ebooks this days! a computer never makes a incompetent diver competent! a computer aids diving or diving skills (i am not even sure i get that right to what i want to say) by making it easier, delivering more (adequate) info to your actual situation. you still dont slap a computer on anybody to enable him to dive!!! what stupidity is that? a dc (divecomputer) is a tool as your tables, mask, fins, tank, bcd / bpw are to do a dive. it doesnt relieve you from actual skills to dive. it def. doesnt make a "incompetent" diver competent! to even suggest that makes me questioning your "competence"!

 

[cinder4320]

Again...


When I was in high school the BRAND NeW TI 10s came out. We were still made to use a slide rule in Chemistry, though they were obviously OBSOLETE. There was a WHOLE section on how to perform the most menial task on a slide rule and the teachers SWORE that getting rid of the sliderule was a "dumbing down" of their curriculae. In actuality, we had a mixture of techno-phobia and the "It's always been taught this way" phenomenon.

Even when using a calculator instead of a slide rule you need to understand the basic math. Your analogy is a bit off. It would be better to compare working out formulas by hand versus using a calculator. In both cases the basic formulas are important. Schools don’t hand calculators to those in kindergarten to learn to type in 1+1. Instead they teach them how to add! This isn’t about not going forward with technology. No one is disputing using the computer as the teachers disputed using calculators. They are saying that before you use the technology it is good to have a solid foundation knowledge.

I have a nitrox computer, use it to dive nitrox but also understand the formulas and even more important the concepts behind them. As to why most courses don’t cover computer specifics, every computer layout is a bit different. I personally don’t want to sit in a class I paid for to learn about my computer. That’s why they give you the manual when you buy it. If someone wants to pay to betaught about their computer thats fine with me as long as the basic background info is covered.

Miranda

 

[scubatexastony]

I think there are two groups of people out there...those that think we should make scuba diving accessible to everyone under the sun and those that think that the current curriculum is already too dumbed down and needs to be made more comprehensive

What side of the fence are you on? Me, I'm happy to see a diver plan and execute a safe dive with good bouyancy and being considerate about the enviorment, where one day I would like to take my grandson for a visit. That means anyone and everyone that's capable of safely planning and executing a dive, be it on tables or with a computer, should, and can enjoy this great sport we indulge in more often than the masses.

You seem to be on the other side of the fence, seeing scuba diving is only for the ones willing to spend a major portion of their time and money continually learning more and perfecting their skills as a scuba diver. (reality check) A lot of internet divers are quick in pointing out what's in everyone eye, but fail to see they might just fall short seeing the big picture. It's makes for good space on a "list" like TDS or SB, but contributes only to the continuing blabber of such threads. Put your money where you mouth is and become an instructor, make your curriculum more comprehensive and create some divers you'd be proud of, maybe then those words would mean a bit more. It damn sure won't change by barking on your side of the fence.

I read all the advice about "It's the instructor that matters", not the course and I bet I can find where even you recited it. Sure, there's bad ones out there. It's sad to say, but there's teachers in our education system that fit the same bad bill. They are there for a paycheck and nothing more. It's that big world thing again, good and bad apples, and from having no more knowledge of Pete than knowing him for the past 4 years through the SB, I see him as a good apple. (crisp and fat)

<end rant>

 

[MikeFerrara]

Again,

no one has YET to show how knowing HOW to calculate MOD, EAD and Best mix without the use of formulae is any less safe than using the formulae.

I showed you that not all computers will calculate best mix and asked if your class/certification rectricted the computers that students can use.

You think it's evil because YOU don't dive or teach that way. You can keep your elitist attitudes: I want to open up diving to as many as possible.

No one said anything about evil and I think you are the one with the elitist attitude.

Mike, I guess you teach your students how not to get narced. You have me beat. I am not nearly as Godlike as you. I only teach them to avoid it all together and how to PAY ATTENTION to their gauges, including the various alarms.

I am certainly not Godlike though I am God loving. Still, as a matter of fact, I do teach students how to not get narced. Why don't you?