That is interesting...like to hear the reasonling on that...Rick Inman:
Nitrox Class Without Tables or Math...OK?
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Actually I think the reasoning is because it's supposed to be an 'experience' course. It doesn't give you a certification, or count in any way towards tha Nitrox certification - it's just to give you a chance to try it. It would be hard to try it without doing a dive!jagfish:
Yeah, as long as we don't get in the way of NetDoc and Mike's match (PICTURE of Them HERE).jagfish:
NetDoc:
The one I'm refering to is the Dacor Equanox. However, the Zeagle multigas computer (not the new one) worked almost exactly the same.
That's true, it would be a rather brief experience course without the experience...Kim:Actually I think the reasoning is because it's supposed to be an 'experience' course. It doesn't give you a certification, or count in any way towards tha Nitrox certification - it's just to give you a chance to try it. It would be hard to try it without doing a dive!
Rick, like they say, when elephants dance, mice get squashed....
obviously everybodies computer is a little different (and it seems some ppl's are on the stage of an edge or orca seeing the posts here) and thats not what the course is about. i still cover basic "formulas" in my sdi courses, but dont expect ppl to memorize this. its part of my teaching curriculum (is tht spelled right??) for it. its to get a basic understanding how to get there, and then we go into computers, A) in general, B) what some might do for you, C) into your specific ones in my class, as needed. its the same like tables, they work very simular (yes with brand specific differences). it is just amazing how many ppl dont even know what they can actually do with their "basic" computers. it might be difficult with some models to get the same results in terms of planning, but its possible. keep in mind we just discussing basic nitrox diving here, not any technical applications. if i hear stuff like: ... you get anything between 21 and 39% nitrox....., sorry its time to change shop / provider! if a fill station is not able to provide a mix within (you request it for the dive or just general) 1% they should be closed down, hanged, drowned & quartered - they are obvious morons. obviously it is beneficial to know "more" about "it".
let me give you an example about "knowing more" - coming from europe i had to drive a car with standard (stick - shift) to pass my drivers license test, i had to proof also minimum amount of hours on the "autobahn", city traffic, night driving and parking in seriously confined space. we dont even want to go into us - driving tests (its a joke to the point i cant laugh anymore). in germany you have to be 18 not 16 (or even less) so they let you handle 300hp or more (still never learned how to shift gears and why!!) to go 80mph max on streets that would allow unlimeted speed (as the german autobahn). i guess you guys do the absolute minimum to allow kids to kill themself on the road (but god forbid underwater) and be still able to to justify it with: "he had a license!!!!". no underlaying knowledge needed - try to pass on that a drivers test in europe!
guess what i try to say here at this point is - you (most of you) make a big fuzz about nothing! ppl dive, hell i started with 8 (30+ years ago) with very little intro beside my 8 yrs old knowledge, plus the "borrowed" equipment of my dad (what was still homemade to a good part at the time in europe) and my will to "research" the seahunters tv show. my dad semi killed me years later, when he found out.
i teach diving this days, since quite a while, and have seen the "evolution" of padi, naui etc, the introduction of "so called" tech agencies like tdi, iantd etc. i have seen the bad bad bad nitrox become a standard gas and even trimix becoming an increasingly common dive gas. while it all became increasingly more common (and the general knowledge increased) it became also "easier" to use - i guess due to the onset of the awareness that it isnt that much different and dangerous.
so why make it artificially that much more "difficult and dangerous"? its a friggin gas like air! your mod changes and your sac, dac and what else, it isnt an issue for the recreational nitrox diver. do we need to teach everybody who wants to dive nitrox (maybe on air "tables" for an increased safety level) educated to decompression theory (thats all it is a bunch of theories - no hard proof) to do basic dives with the benefit of air dives including increased safety margins or slightly longer bottomtimes? basically i teach there in a grey area - it is all nice sounding mathematics of a couple ppl with very little hard evidence. jeez we not even need nitrox for that - the rgbm bubble theory (widely accepted this days) causes more problems when applied to extreme tech dives - it is still an undisputed part many dive computers this day!!!
i think i am gliding out of the topic here and should stop before somebody kills me. diving changes and as a fairly young sport very rapidly. some ppl will just stick with what they learned, others will push the bounderies and "in between" we will see serious changes in the industry - that might be the move towards computers now, it will be the major move towards rebreathers soon. it is definetely away from tables and math you like it or not. there will be all the time a "pushing the envelope" community that wants to know the details (and has to!) to drive diving further and there will be a recreational diving community to just dive and maybe pick up on stuff years later when it becomes established and "save". if you want to push - use tables, research, question and try (and maybe fail in a chamber) but dont blame the ppl that try to have some fun and try to do so with the least possible amount of work and effort because it is a sport like riding a bike, going to the gym or doing arobics for them.
let me give you an example about "knowing more" - coming from europe i had to drive a car with standard (stick - shift) to pass my drivers license test, i had to proof also minimum amount of hours on the "autobahn", city traffic, night driving and parking in seriously confined space. we dont even want to go into us - driving tests (its a joke to the point i cant laugh anymore). in germany you have to be 18 not 16 (or even less) so they let you handle 300hp or more (still never learned how to shift gears and why!!) to go 80mph max on streets that would allow unlimeted speed (as the german autobahn). i guess you guys do the absolute minimum to allow kids to kill themself on the road (but god forbid underwater) and be still able to to justify it with: "he had a license!!!!". no underlaying knowledge needed - try to pass on that a drivers test in europe!
guess what i try to say here at this point is - you (most of you) make a big fuzz about nothing! ppl dive, hell i started with 8 (30+ years ago) with very little intro beside my 8 yrs old knowledge, plus the "borrowed" equipment of my dad (what was still homemade to a good part at the time in europe) and my will to "research" the seahunters tv show. my dad semi killed me years later, when he found out.
i teach diving this days, since quite a while, and have seen the "evolution" of padi, naui etc, the introduction of "so called" tech agencies like tdi, iantd etc. i have seen the bad bad bad nitrox become a standard gas and even trimix becoming an increasingly common dive gas. while it all became increasingly more common (and the general knowledge increased) it became also "easier" to use - i guess due to the onset of the awareness that it isnt that much different and dangerous.
so why make it artificially that much more "difficult and dangerous"? its a friggin gas like air! your mod changes and your sac, dac and what else
, it isnt an issue for the recreational nitrox diver. do we need to teach everybody who wants to dive nitrox (maybe on air "tables" for an increased safety level) educated to decompression theory (thats all it is a bunch of theories - no hard proof) to do basic dives with the benefit of air dives including increased safety margins or slightly longer bottomtimes? basically i teach there in a grey area - it is all nice sounding mathematics of a couple ppl with very little hard evidence. jeez we not even need nitrox for that - the rgbm bubble theory (widely accepted this days) causes more problems when applied to extreme tech dives - it is still an undisputed part many dive computers this day!!!i think i am gliding out of the topic here and should stop before somebody kills me
. diving changes and as a fairly young sport very rapidly. some ppl will just stick with what they learned, others will push the bounderies and "in between" we will see serious changes in the industry - that might be the move towards computers now, it will be the major move towards rebreathers soon. it is definetely away from tables and math you like it or not. there will be all the time a "pushing the envelope" community that wants to know the details (and has to!) to drive diving further and there will be a recreational diving community to just dive and maybe pick up on stuff years later when it becomes established and "save". if you want to push - use tables, research, question and try (and maybe fail in a chamber) but dont blame the ppl that try to have some fun and try to do so with the least possible amount of work and effort because it is a sport like riding a bike, going to the gym or doing arobics for them.
(holy long posts batman...):14:
jagfish:
I guess things have been changed.
The standards I taught under read as follows.
Gotta keep up with the Jonses I guess.
I´m late to the party but anyway...
I disagree with the idea that a nitrox class should only be about teaching the student how not to kill themselves while using it. I believe that the formulas help solve "real world problems" associated with nitrox diving.
They aren´t needed to safely conduct a dive (as long as the computer works like it´s supposed to and the diver understands it) but knowing them means that you aren´t SOL if you find yourself somewhere without a divecomputer. The formulas are sort of like the candles/flashlights people keep in their apartments in case of a poweroutage, the average person may only need to use those a few times in a lifetime, but once needed they are very good to have.
I don´t have a problem with this particular class, let people spend money however they want and assume whatver risks they want. I do think that implying that the formulas are hard, make divers less inclined to learn about them. I think that gives the math the same dark, vodoo image that nitrox itself had from the start. I think that´s a bad thing as I do belive they add value, even to the recreational nitrox diver and as has been pointed out, the math is VERY easy....
I disagree with the idea that a nitrox class should only be about teaching the student how not to kill themselves while using it. I believe that the formulas help solve "real world problems" associated with nitrox diving.
They aren´t needed to safely conduct a dive (as long as the computer works like it´s supposed to and the diver understands it) but knowing them means that you aren´t SOL if you find yourself somewhere without a divecomputer. The formulas are sort of like the candles/flashlights people keep in their apartments in case of a poweroutage, the average person may only need to use those a few times in a lifetime, but once needed they are very good to have.
I don´t have a problem with this particular class, let people spend money however they want and assume whatver risks they want. I do think that implying that the formulas are hard, make divers less inclined to learn about them. I think that gives the math the same dark, vodoo image that nitrox itself had from the start. I think that´s a bad thing as I do belive they add value, even to the recreational nitrox diver and as has been pointed out, the math is VERY easy....
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