Nitrox Class Without Tables or Math...OK?

[MikeFerrara]

Yeah, as long as we don't get in the way of NetDoc and Mike's match (PICTURE of Them HERE).

It's not a fair match though because I'm still waiting for Pete to answer the questions that I asked back on about page one. It always goes this way. Any time I ask a question or make a comment in a thread that Pete is in he responds by calling me an elitist. So, I have come to the conclusion that the definition of elitist must be any one who doesn't agree with Pete. I rarely agree with Pete (at least when it comes to diving) so there is little doubt that I am an elitist.

Gosh I give up...ATA * FO2 = PO2 is too hard for Pete's students (SDI students?) and it's unfair and elitist to require it of them. I am starting to believe that. Further it's not necessary to see them dive before issueing them a diving certification because...? I'm still not sure that I get that part but you'll have that from us elitists.

 

[MikeFerrara]

i guess if you cant keep up with the standards of agencies you teach for you shouldnt try to judge standards of agencies you are not even familiar with . no pun intended here .

I am no longer an active IANTD instructor but I assure that while I was I most certainly kept up on the standards. Also note they were sold fairly recently this probably isn't the only thing that changed.

In addition, I didn't judge that standards of any class. I made it clear that I didn't see the SDI standards accessible on their site. I did ask several question but never got an answer.

Beyond that, my opinion regarding teaching nitrox diving without dives or basic theory is based on my own experience diving and teaching nitrox. Why shouldn't I voice that opinion?

 

[MikeFerrara]

I´m late to the party but anyway...

I disagree with the idea that a nitrox class should only be about teaching the student how not to kill themselves while using it. I believe that the formulas help solve "real world problems" associated with nitrox diving.

They aren´t needed to safely conduct a dive (as long as the computer works like it´s supposed to and the diver understands it) but knowing them means that you aren´t SOL if you find yourself somewhere without a divecomputer. The formulas are sort of like the candles/flashlights people keep in their apartments in case of a poweroutage, the average person may only need to use those a few times in a lifetime, but once needed they are very good to have.

I don´t have a problem with this particular class, let people spend money however they want and assume whatver risks they want. I do think that implying that the formulas are hard, make divers less inclined to learn about them. I think that gives the math the same dark, vodoo image that nitrox itself had from the start. I think that´s a bad thing as I do belive they add value, even to the recreational nitrox diver and as has been pointed out, the math is VERY easy....

Be very careful. After pointing out that there's more than just survival but also convenience and versatility, I became an elitist. I fear that you are very close to the same fate. I'd recommend that you never again suggest that there should (or could) be any goal beyond just survival. Further more by stating that the math is easy you are clearly showing blatant intolerence for those who don't want to do it or teach it thus earning you the permenant title as elitist. We really need to admit that it's hard in order to get along here. It is very hard isn't it?

I'm with you. It's legal so do it and make a buck if you can. I can't stop them so why would they get so upset about what I think? As for my elitist self, I'll stick with the opinion that it's not a good way to teach nitrox for all the reasons previously stated.

 

[LSDeep]

well, i am all the way along with pete on this issue. you teach ppl what they need to know to dive nitrox safely. if they wannna go further and know more, there are other courses. why make diving more complicated than it is???
sure you and me and many others know more / want to know more about it. cool, we do. is that your reasoning why ppl shouldnt dive nitrox (and that way safer or with added benefits) because they dont know the math you might know (and i am sure pete or others and me )?
you know, diving is about having fun, combine it with whatever other personal goals. it should be (as much as possible) available / open to everybody who has an interest in the u/w world with a minimum of initial requirements to experience it to do it in a "reasonably" safe way. everything else is contra-productive and (yes) pushes this stupid "elitaire" diving is for the "real guys" only attitude.
you try to say that hsa and the whole deal behind handicapped / challenged divers is stupidity and not worth the effort, because they might be not able to do the "math"??
sounds like a scuba ******* to me !!!!
i know - its a far fetch, but just a step away from saying ppl that wont do the math shouldnt dive, next is ppl that cant move their arms shouldnt be allowed to dive, ppl that need a bit of refreshing after not diving for a while shouldnt dive, ppl that just want basic knowledge to dive shouldnt dive........
ppl that force that kind of crap on ppl that would like to dive and get started with diving shouldnt be allowed to dive , because they are the ultimate contraproductive issue to ppl that are interested in diving.

 

[gcbryan]

Why are some people assuming that some of the people who will take this class can't handle the math? Maybe someone who doesn't know how to use their computer can't handle the math but I think anyone who dives can handle the math as long as it is taught.

 

[LSDeep]

Be very careful. After pointing out that there's more than just survival but also convenience and versatility, I became an elitist. I fear that you are very close to the same fate. I'd recommend that you never again suggest that there should (or could) be any goal beyond just survival. Further more by stating that the math is easy you are clearly showing blatant intolerence for those who don't want to do it or teach it thus earning you the permenant title as elitist. We really need to admit that it's hard in order to get along here. It is very hard isn't it?

I'm with you. It's legal so do it and make a buck if you can. I can't stop them so why would they get so upset about what I think? As for my elitist self, I'll stick with the opinion that it's not a good way to teach nitrox for all the reasons previously stated.

you know, i love sarcasm (whenever i can use it i do). i also love to teach tdi / padi / bsac / cmas and YES sdi courses to my students as needed / asked for with advise what would be best for them and their goals as they see them in the future. i like to do "insane" stuff myself (without students) and pushing with deep air, self build / modified rb's etc. that doesnt mean i have to ignore a market (which feeds me to a good part) because i think falsely that math makes me THE better diver. i think you evolve as you dive (and maybe make it a more important part of your live / hobbies). everybody starts somewhere and doesnt need all the "when i used my doubles with the steel bp - because the plastic bp wouldnt be bullet proof.... blabla... sh!t). some ppl will never need / want all the background, others want it from start, for most it is an ongoing process.
all this jabba blabba about not needed info to get started puts ppl off and doesnt do anything for them to get interested / involved in diving. while my personal interest lay somewhere way beyond most of my students likely lifetime goals (and jeez - yes i can do the math part, be it 4th, 6th or 10th grade and beyond), i have still fun to teach ppl to use scuba equipment in a safe (foremost), enjoyable way with all the needed skills and knowledge to become safe divers that will continuing diving because they dont feel "threatend" by a bunch of " we know everything better PLUS the math!" yahoos. not everybody makes / wants to make diving a semi livetime occupation! that doesnt mean they shouldnt be able to experience diving in an easy and safe manner and might change their ideas !

 

[grazie42]

Originally Posted by LSDeep
well, i am all the way along with pete on this issue. you teach ppl what they need to know to dive nitrox safely. if they wannna go further and know more, there are other courses. why make diving more complicated than it is???

My contention is that in the "real world" of diving, knowing the formulas makes diving nitrox EASIER than when you don´t. IMO it´s not about "knowledge for the sake of knowledge" it´s about learning enough to fascilitate nitrox diving even if, for whatever reason, you don´t have your computer with you (and be able to notice if it is giving you bad information).

Calling the math complicated borders on dishonest, IMO and says more about YOUR preconseptions about divers than about the divers you are supposedly "protecting" from all this horrible learning...pushing for instruction in the formulas isn´t about "punishing stupid divers", it´s about giving divers the tools they need to get as much utility from their cert as is reasonable given certain time and economical constraints...

 

[LSDeep]

Why are some people assuming that some of the people who will take this class can't handle the math? Maybe someone who doesn't know how to use their computer can't handle the math but I think anyone who dives can handle the math as long as it is taught.

i dont think it is so much about ppl assuming others cant handle the math, it is more about i had to learn it and thats why you have to.
as it was slow to catch onto nitrox as an acceptable diving gas, computers to get into diving in the late 80ies, still trimix (in all its variations) right now and rebreathers as the "new" pushing thing. people have a tendency (including me ) to stick with stuff they know. the bad thing is, when you cant overcome it to try / embrace new technologies / ways and adapt to them.
i believe, while ppl are whining about the increasing influence of computers in diving right now, they wanna die in (call it) 10yrs - when in my believe the rebreather will be the normal thing and tanks are looking rather outdated and are a "historical diver specialty". thats beside the fact that nearly everything this days already is computerbased with ccr's.

 

[gcbryan]

i dont think it is so much about ppl assuming others cant handle the math, it is more about i had to learn it and thats why you have to.
as it was slow to catch onto nitrox as an acceptable diving gas, computers to get into diving in the late 80ies, still trimix (in all its variations) right now and rebreathers as the "new" pushing thing. people have a tendency (including me ) to stick with stuff they know. the bad thing is, when you cant overcome it to try / embrace new technologies / ways and adapt to them.
i believe, while ppl are whining about the increasing influence of computers in diving right now, they wanna die in (call it) 10yrs - when in my believe the rebreather will be the normal thing and tanks are looking rather outdated and are a "historical diver specialty". thats beside the fact that nearly everything this days already is computerbased with ccr's.

It seems to me that you have one argument and you are using it where it doesn't apply. I had no problem with Nitrox years ago, have no problem with rebreathers now, and am not averse to change. I have no problem with computers although I think that you still should keep your brain in the loop.

Teach someone how to use their computer if they can't figure it out themselves but why not teach the basic formulas as well. Nitrox made simple as a marketing slogan doesn't sound like it's about a program on the leading edge of change as you are arguing. It sounds like telling someone that learning about Nitrox is hard but that if you come to your class you'll make it easy. As an aside, rebreathers aren't new. They predate scuba.

 

[jagfish]

I am no longer an active IANTD instructor but I assure that while I was I most certainly kept up on the standards. Also note they were sold fairly recently this probably isn't the only thing that changed.

The posted standards I was quoting from were labeled as 2003. This is not to say anything about you, but about them being changed well before the change in ownership.