Nitrox class question

[WJL]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...

....
If one person here, Spectre, encountered a situation in which a basic EANx diver toxed, and the injury was not reported as as tox related, then I doubt there much, if ANY, justification for revising a dozen training agencies' standards on when to teach ox tox rescue.

Karl, I suppose you say these things just to be a contrarian. Here are some points to keep in mind:

1 - There is a possibility that oxygen toxicity can occur whenever a diver is breathing a gas mixture with an elevated oxygen content. The exact limits and parameters regarding occurrences of oxygen toxicity are not well-understood.

2 - Oxtox can happen for no discernable reason. Despite Rodale's assertions to the contrary, oxtox has occurred at PPO2 less than 1.6. I doubt that the death of Spectre's friend is the only instance.

3 - Oxtox can happen because someone made a mistake. Mistakes can and do occur either in mixing the gas or in diving the mix too deep, resulting in a mix with a too high oxygen level for a particular depth. For example, this is what happened to the toxing diver AG rescued. He had improperly mixed his own gas and certified it as correct and tested, without actually testing it.

4 - It is possible to save a toxing diver if the rescuer has proper training.

5 - Without immediate attention from a properly trained rescuer, a toxing diver will almost certainly drown.

Given these facts, I agree with MHK that a basic nitrox course ought to include training on rescuing a toxing diver.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

We stress to our divers the benefits of diving Nitrox after completing a proper training course. Accordingly, substantially all of our newly certified divers take Nitrox. In fact, I hardly ever do air fills except for pool sessions when we are in a hurry.

If you're going to breathe the gas, you should know how to deal with the potential consequences. That includes rescuing a toxing diver. Even if you don't have the full rescue course, this information is necessary if you are going to have a chance of getting the toxing diver to the surface, where they can receive additional first aid from more qualified personnel.

The fact that it is unlikely is not relevant. Most failures are relatively unlikely. But we still practice how to handle them. Why? Because the consequences of screwing it up are very, very severe.

Essentially, its basic risk management. The chance of an ox tox at recreational limits is very small. However, the consequences are very, very severe. Accordingly, it is worth teaching.

Big T: I didn't mean to suggest that DIR-F would allow you to get Nitrox fills. However, during DIR-F, we discussed proper gas selection in some detail. We discussed the reasons for using particular gasses at particular depths and how gas selection effects NDL and deco obligations. That said, every one of my classmates was already Nitrox certified.

 

[Karl_in_Calif]

WJL once bubbled...
1 - There is a possibility that oxygen toxicity can occur whenever a diver is breathing a gas mixture with an elevated oxygen content. The exact limits and parameters regarding occurrences of oxygen toxicity are not well-understood.

2 - Oxtox can happen for no discernable reason. Despite Rodale's assertions to the contrary, oxtox has occurred at PPO2 less than 1.6. I doubt that the death of Spectre's friend is the only instance.

3 - Oxtox can happen because someone made a mistake. Mistakes can and do occur either in mixing the gas or in diving the mix too deep, resulting in a mix with a too high oxygen level for a particular depth. For example, this is what happened to the toxing diver AG rescued. He had improperly mixed his own gas and certified it as correct and tested, without actually testing it.

4 - It is possible to save a toxing diver if the rescuer has proper training.

5 - Without immediate attention from a properly trained rescuer, a toxing diver will almost certainly drown.

To review the covered ground, with the original question and issue having been whether a classroom session alone would be sufficiently safe as adequate training for a basic EANx diver, we hve moved way beyond that, to the inclusion of the issue of teaching ox tox rescue as well. It begs the question, as to how you might teach ox tox rescue (in the classroom, and/or in the pool, and/or in the open water?)

Do I personally feel that actual dives are warranted for a basic EANx certification? NAUI has already made that decision for me. Their answer is yes, two dives, one of which is to be a repetitive dive.

Do I personally feel that ox tox resue of some sort (classroom or pool or open water) is waranted in a basic EANx class? NAUI leaves that decision at my own option for the basic EANx course.

Why do I ask questions and debate with all of you all?

First of all, I do not. A whole long list of you are on my ignor list.

The others, whom I do listen to, I value your input. That is why.

NAUI gives me almost total freedom to teach scuba as I see fit, as long as I meet the stated standards. NAUI's stated standards to not require the teaching of ox tox rescue, or any other rescue, in the basic EANx course. But NAUI does not prevent instructors from doing so if they desire.

 

[MHK]

Karl_in_Calif once bubbled...


To review the covered ground, with the original question and issue having been whether a classroom session alone would be sufficiently safe as adequate training for a basic EANx diver, we hve moved way beyond that, to the inclusion of the issue of teaching ox tox rescue as well. It begs the question, as to how you might teach ox tox rescue (in the classroom, and/or in the pool, and/or in the open water?)

.

Karl,

I'm not going to get into any type of quagmire over this, but I disagree with your premise of us having moved on. You are correct the oringinal premise of the thread was respecting no in-water dives required for certain Nitrox classes. However, using one example of why I believe in-water sessions are important is the very point of teaching in-water rescues if a diver toxes. In the aftermath of this thread I reviewed the PADI Nitrox video over the weekend, and to put it mildly I was shocked at what was in it. The tape was about 44 minutes long, and roughly 35 seconds were devoted to rescuing a toxing diver. In short, it said to treat a toxing diver like a unconscious diver and get him to the surface ASAP, then a quick plug for the PADI rescue class. That is the sum total of the video respecting toxing diver rescues. Give you the wrong way to do it, then sell you a different class to do it. In my view that is horrific. Not that I want to turn this into a PADI bashing thread, but I offer it only because I watched it again over the weekend because of this thread.

Moreover, I've yet to see a compelling reason not to teach it. It's also going to be rare that a diver run's OOA so do you recommend that we don't teach OOA drills? Most divers will likely never loose a mask, so should we not teach mask R & R's?? It seems to me that any contingency skill is taught with the very premise that you may never use it, but in case you need it we teach it. I don't buy your argument at all that just because you teach to stay above MOD's that you'll don't need to teach rescues. I hope you never do need it, but it's nice to know the proper method, as they say " In the unlikely event"..

You can choose to teach your classes anyway you see fit, but you shouldn't be surprised when you leave out critical information if many of us may share a different point of view..

Later

 

[MikeFerrara]

MHK once bubbled...


Karl,

I'm not going to get into any type of quagmire over this, but I disagree with your premise of us having moved on. You are correct the oringinal premise of the thread was respecting no in-water dives required for certain Nitrox classes. However, using one example of why I believe in-water sessions are important is the very point of teaching in-water rescues if a diver toxes. In the aftermath of this thread I reviewed the PADI Nitrox video over the weekend, and to put it mildly I was shocked at what was in it. The tape was about 44 minutes long, and roughly 35 seconds were devoted to rescuing a toxing diver. In short, it said to treat a toxing diver like a unconscious diver and get him to the surface ASAP, then a quick plug for the PADI rescue class. That is the sum total of the video respecting toxing diver rescues. Give you the wrong way to do it, then sell you a different class to do it. In my view that is horrific. Not that I want to turn this into a PADI bashing thread, but I offer it only because I watched it again over the weekend because of this thread.

Moreover, I've yet to see a compelling reason not to teach it. It's also going to be rare that a diver run's OOA so do you recommend that we don't teach OOA drills? Most divers will likely never loose a mask, so should we not teach mask R & R's?? It seems to me that any contingency skill is taught with the very premise that you may never use it, but in case you need it we teach it. I don't buy your argument at all that just because you teach to stay above MOD's that you'll don't need to teach rescues. I hope you never do need it, but it's nice to know the proper method, as they say " In the unlikely event"..

You can choose to teach your classes anyway you see fit, but you shouldn't be surprised when you leave out critical information if many of us may share a different point of view..

Later

Aside from the video, which puts most people to sleep before getting to the subject of rescue, it should be noted here that the PADI text does mention the possible advantage of not surfacing a diver while they are convulsing. I think they put what they knew into the text. The specific case of a toxing diver isn't even addressed in the rescue class.

I won't debate the value of rescue skills being introduced but some agencies don't allow the instructor to add skills to the course. When they are added it isn't always a simple matter. For instance, if I teach a student how to surface a toxing diver what do I do about teaching the rest of the rescue? Getting a diver to the surface means that the next steps are ensuring that they stay there, establishing and maintaining an airway, checking for breathing, getting help, maybe providing rescue breaths, egress, managing the sceen and arranging evacuation and handing the patient over to emergency personel along with all pertenant information. What if the student has no knowledge of rescue breathing techniques or CPR? Dispite best efforts drowning or near drowning may also be an issue. Do I add that also? Do I include instruction on how to manage an accident sceen in case there isn't any one more qualified on hand? Assuming the possibility of near drowning do I include O2 administration. Do I teach egresses? The point is that getting the diver to the surface is only part of the job. Even a non-nitrox diver may be around when some one else toxes so do we add this to other classes? All classes? OW classes?

Just some things to think about.

 

[TCDiver1]

MHK once bubbled...

Moreover, I've yet to see a compelling reason not to teach it. It's also going to be rare that a diver run's OOA so do you recommend that we don't teach OOA drills? Most divers will likely never loose a mask, so should we not teach mask R & R's?? It seems to me that any contingency skill is taught with the very premise that you may never use it, but in case you need it we teach it. I don't buy your argument at all that just because you teach to stay above MOD's that you'll don't need to teach rescues. I hope you never do need it, but it's nice to know the proper method, as they say " In the unlikely event"..

That is the question isn't it? What to teach, based on what's the chance, of the event in question occuring?

Not to support Karl in this but i'm not as sure as some of you are that o-tox rescue is a big enough risk to warrant training at the basic nitrox level. The compelling reason is, unless someone can show me proof of something different, mainstream education is to my knowledge not toxing any significant percentage of newly certified nitrox divers.

Statistically speaking, i would be willing to bet there are a heck of lot more masks being knocked off or OOA situations than there are O-tox situations happening which makes them logical skills to teach. Seems compelling to me.

As i'm sure some of you know, some mainstream agencies teach a max at ppO2 of 1.4 not 1.6. Is it possible any of us will o-tox at 1.6, 1.4 or even lower? Sure is, but it's also possible any of us could develop DCS diving well within established tables with all the variables involved, many of which still are not completely understood.

Does that now mean that all OW divers should now be taught all the required DCS rescue skills, including first aid and O2 administration, before they can get their OW cards. I know some of you will say yes, and sure it would be better but it's just not necessary IMO.

You gotta draw the line somewhere and i don't see a diving mortality rate (which can be defined to be caused by O-tox), which would justify such actions. JMO.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

MikeF:

Certainly that's a difficult issue as you don't want to include too much. However, perhaps the best way to handle that is to include means of establishing buoyancy on the surface as part of the discussion on surfacing a toxing diver, then stress the importance of (1) screaming for help; and (2) taking Rescue.

This is not perfect; however, its better than nothing. At a minimum, it gets the diver to the surface with at least a chance of survival.

 

[Karl_in_Calif]

gedunk once bubbled...

Not to support Karl in this but

LOL! Since when is that a crime?

It may not be popular, but then, as Mark Twain once noted, when something is popular, then it means you have at least every other idiot on your side, and that is a majority anywhere.

 

[TCDiver1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Just some things to think about.

Yup ... more of the same.

 

[cornfed]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Just some things to think about.

Mike, these are all valid points but they're secondary to getting the guy safely to the surface.