Newly certified diver OOA at Gilboa

[fisherdvm]

Thanks for the analysis, Ayisha, I would not call it panicking. It was a decision that I made, that was logical at the time. It is incidences like that, that makes one a better diver. I think one should be exposed to all situation, and analysis done on all possibilities, to become a better diver. But if you insist on putting down remarks, feel free to do so, as so many other's have eloquently enjoyed when they are not in someone else's shoe.

**** happens. If you survived, you're a better person.

Ayisha, if you read my post in going pro, I never said I was a good DM candidate, nor will I ever be a "real" DM. It started out simply because I want to be a better buddy for my son, and then wanting to do some scuba in the winter.

And how do you, Stop. Breath?????, and think. I did, not once, not twice, but three times. What did I get? Water, water, water.... Silly me, I am a fish? Did I think, yes. 6 ft, cesa, blow bubble, no trouble. Right?

When you can not share your experience on SB because of some A$$ is going to criticize you, how can other gain from your experience.

The point I am making, is , not all octos are dry, and not all perform when your buddy is OOA.

 

[Ayisha]

Exhaling is part of breathing. You would stop, exhale the water, and think and act. Bolting is not supposed to be part of the steps.

And yes, it has happened to me. I have had my reg come apart from my mouthpiece TWICE in o/w after two different maintenance services. BTW, there was nothing wrong with the reg before the service, it was just regular maintenance. I saw the reg floating away, but the mouthpiece was in my mouth. I was in the process of breathing in, started to get water, stopped, blew it out, didn't really understand what was going on, looked at the reg with no mouthpiece, and pushed it back together. It worked. The second time, the instructor on the boat fixed it and said that a tool should always be used for cinching the zip tie tight rather than hand tightening, which is presumably what the shop did. Try breathing through the mouthpiece in your mouth when there's no reg attached and see how much water you get.

I also had a wet reg once when the mouthpiece was torn. I got a little water while diving, which I just blew out. No big deal. Looked at the mouthpiece after the dive and had it changed.

You mentioned being in your shoes, and I think my three incidents are pretty similar. Yes, those incidents taught me how I react in a potentially disconcerting situation and gave me experience in dealing with more events. But I'm not making myself responsible for others.

 

[TSandM]

It sounds to me as though your original question was whether a bolting student should be stopped, or whether someone should attempt to stop them. I think the answer HAS to be an emphatic "yes", because the thing most likely to KILL them is AGE, and you can get AGE from a 20 foot ascent with a closed glottis. You have no real good way to know if a bolting student has an open glottis unless you see exhale bubbles, and even then, at the end of THIS exhalation, they may hold their breath. You have to try to stop them.

We had a death in Puget Sound a couple of years ago that appeared to be due to an AGE that occurred when a buddy pair, doing an air-sharing ascent, ended up separated. One story is that the OOA diver panicked, rejected the reg, and bolted. At any rate, she hit the surface dead and remained so. We'll never know if she might have survived if someone could have caught her, but I doubt it would have hurt.

 

[The Chairman]

Interesting thread, and there are a dozen or more items being discussed. If I may address some:

As a "DM candidate", you have little professional liability. Your instructor is responsible for you and your mistakes, unless we are talking about gross negligence and then it could be a criminal matter. Of course, ANYONE can be sued these days: even buddies who are only OW certified. However, don't try to play a DM candidate away from your instructor. You may be guilty of misrepresenting your self.

Sending Steve, an EMT or Fireman to check out the situation was fine. Actually, any help rendered here in Florida, even by professionals is not grounds for a suit under our Good Samaritan act. ONLY if you are accepting compensation for services can you be held legally liable for any mistakes you make while assisting in an emergency, AS LONG AS you did not create the initial emergency. Most states have a Good Samaritan Law, so check yours to see what it covers. Florida's is GREAT, as I am not liable as an instructor should I be requested to assist in an emergency. This was amended to include professionals a few years ago, as it was noted that they were wary of assisting at accident scenes lest they be sued for malpractice.

As for regs, requiring 130 psi to operate, that is not true. For your entertainment, pull the dust cap OFF of your regulator and try to suck air through it. Most will allow you to breathe with a lot of resistance. Theoretically, you can breathe your tank down until you reach ambient pressure. However, breathing becomes increasingly difficult under a 130 PSI, even with a balanced reg. As one ascends from 33 ft, you will find one additional tank full of air as you approach the surface. That would be 3 tank fulls of air from 100 fsw. I have emptied a tank in a pool just to see what happens. I was surprised at the results and how empty I could make that tank.

NAUI requires that the reg stays in the mouth during all CESA exercises. If a diver is above me and on their way up, I will not try to intercept.

 

[The Kraken]

fftopic:

Wow !!!!

I wish I could fill my TANK by ascending 33'.

OK, I'll go away now and sin no more . . .

the K-an't Do That Yet

 

[fisherdvm]

It fascinate me how often well meaning instructors, divemaster, and divemaster candidate wants to share their own experience, so that they can learn from others and others can learn from them.

Then you get some total a$$ who comes in thinking that they are saint from high heaven who simply say - you are a what, and you did what?? You know, we all make mistake. We all did stupid things. We all learn from it all. A very experienced course director told me once how he "bolted" to the surface (as some a$$) would call it when he tried to stretch his tank to finish a lesson. Oh, yes.... why didn't you want to reach for the student's octo? No, the surface of a pool is alot closer, and less embarrassing too than reaching for another's octo. Gosh darn it... hind sight, for me, it was embarrassing. Demonstrating to the student exactly what they shouldn't do. In actuality, my mind did think, and worked correctly - the surface is 6 ft above, why not go for it?

I've heard it all here before - you are a doctor, and you did what? You are a dive instructor, and you let your son did that? You are a so, and so, and you can't even spell clotrimazole? Make fun of instructor, doctors, DM, and DM candidate? All it does is tell us how arrogant and a jerk one is on this board.

Sure, I sat down with my instructor yesterday, and discussed with him how I feel very unprepared to be a DM. He said, just spend more time with the students. I agree with him - the best way to learn to be a good instructor or DM is simply being around students. You'll see every conceivable defects in diving gear with those rental closets. As we have discussed on this board many time - a DM candidate, or a DM for that matter - means very little in the quality of a diver.

Why don't you god given saints just go back to cozy heaven, where all goes well - and all is perfect. And let us normal human beings, full of our defects - discuss our defects here we we can learn and others can too. I can't help it if my IQ is closer to a rock than yours - but GOD forbid if you ever made a mistake in your life.

 

[fisherdvm]

As for regs, requiring 130 psi to operate, that is not true. For your entertainment, pull the dust cap OFF of your regulator and try to suck air through it. Most will allow you to breathe with a lot of resistance. Theoretically, you can breathe your tank down until you reach ambient pressure. However, breathing becomes increasingly difficult under a 130 PSI, even with a balanced reg. As one ascends from 33 ft, you will find one additional tank full of air as you approach the surface. That would be 3 tank fulls of air from 100 fsw. I have emptied a tank in a pool just to see what happens. I was surprised at the results and how empty I could make that tank.

The physics of that always fascinated me. But we seem to get conflicting opinions. I wish I can PM Vance Harlow, the author of scuba maintenance and repair on it.

Some say, that few extra breaths comes from the tank. Some say, it is the expanding air coming from the hoses.

I wish there is a safe way to test it. Take a tank down to 100 ft, breath it till it dry. Go up to 20 feet, breath it again, and then count the breath. Or simply, go to the surface and count the breaths.

Why can't someone do this and let us know. But the report from folks who have experienced this say it does happen, and you do get a few more breaths on the way up.

 

[spectrum]

A mouth full of nothing is better than a mouth full of water. Reg in mouth.

That was my teaching.

 

[HowardE]

I wish I can PM Vance Harlow, the author of scuba maintenance and repair on it.

[user]oxyhacker[/user]

 

[Inalara]

Interesting comments in this thread, and personally I don't see the comments that others have made as critising you (maybe if I had written it, I would feel differently), but more offering their opinions and warning you of potential issues that you may/may not be aware of - just my thoughts.

I too went the DM route to make myself (hopefully) a better buddy, but I didn't send off my papers, which was intentional as I didn't plan to work as a DM/didn't want the liabilites associated with it and am happy being recorded as an Advanced diver on the dive boats I go on. (I also don't show the rescue card in general, although I keep the certification up to date).

I was paying for the experience a DM candidate gets, not to get the qualification; After all, saying I am an advanced diver is all I need for the dives I want to do.

The one thing it left me realising how much there is still to learn, its a feeling I hope to never lose, since I believe complacency to be a big risk in this sport, so the fact you feel unprepared to be a DM isn't altogether a bad thing, but I'm curious, did you feel prepared before witnessing this incident?