Newly certified diver OOA at Gilboa

[fisherdvm]

Thanks for your concern, Rhakis. Technically, I am covered by my instructor's and dive shop's insurance. They might be breaking standards, which means when I screw up - they are likely not going to get covered for injuries caused by my neglect.

I think many instructor's knowingly take such risk daily - having a certified diver watching over one student, while doing a cesa on the line. I've seen single instructor leaving one student unattended, while doing a navigation with another.

Risk management is what I see in real life. The two instructors would have been left handling 9 students, and risk management say - a divemaster intern is better than none. To be honest with you, I've seen more than one instructor using certified divers as assitants in groups. Better to have a portable pony than having none.

On the topic of how much a divemaster intern can do? Just don't ask me how many babies I delivered (over 30 - and I had to keep a log of it), how many wounds I've stitched, and how many obstetric exam I have done and recorded while I was a medical student. Liability insurance does cover for interns, residents, and even medical student performing tasks which are limitted to physicians. I do consider babysitting for a bunch of divers on the surface alot safer than delivering babies as a medical student.

Although, I think on the day I send that application for DM out (or even on the day it was signed by the instructor) ... the shop's and instructor's insurance no longer cover me.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

A number of comments here, hopefully all in a constructive way. And as backstory, I'm not a doctor, but I do expert witness work (defense) in scuba cases as well as am a Fornesic Consultant for the LA County Coroner for scuba fatalities. I've been a NAUI instructor since 1980.

I watched her sat up a bit, appeared to be in good color, and appeared to be communicating.

Generally with a near-drowning, they should be closely observed (sometimes hospitalized) for 24 hours. I don't recall the exact mechanics (refer to the "not a doctor" commnent) but you can get fluid retention in the lungs and fluid accumulation over time that may not be evident immediately following the incident but which becomes worse over time and you effective "drown" hours after you came out of the water.

On hind sight, I really wonder if a student bolting to the surface should really be stopped.

Here comes the can of worms.

I would throw in a caution to you. From what I've read in other posts, you're an almost-DM. Congrats. But . . . don't let your enthusiasm for your new status have you succumb to what I term "Assistantitis". That's where you try to show everyone how much you've learned and know and are eager to thelp and your enthusism carries you way beyond your knowledge base.

First of all, you need to reverse engineer the statement you made above. As a dive professional, you will be held to a different (and sometimes seemingly unreasonable) standard in a court of law. By "reverse engineer" I mean you need to be judging all of your actions on the basis of if it all goes wrong and you are sued, can you defend what you did on the witness stand to a jury of people who are likely non-divers. So here's the question posed to you by the Plaintiff's attorney: "What did you do when Mary bolted to the surface?" Which answer sounds better (and let's you sleep at night):

1. "I immediately swam towards her and tried to force my octopus into her mouth or at least to get her to exhale and did that continuously until we both hit the surface, whereupon I dropped her weights, inflated her BC, asked if she was OK, and signaled for assistance."

. . . or . . .

2. "I just let her hit the surface. It wasn't that deep."

I mean, if they were taught CESA correctly - why don't we just let them hit the surface - especially from a shallow depth.

Contrindication in your thinking: If they were an observant diver, they wouldn't have run out of air in the first place. "Taught CESA correctly" has nothing to do with it. On top of that, you're trying to put logical responses on an illogical (panic) event.

Stopping them incompletely . . .

You won't stop them. A panicked bolting diver has the most amazing & efficient kick you'll ever experience. Probably the best you can do is ride them up to the surface and slow them down as best you can.

I understand that I was chastised severely by many instructors . . . at the suggestion of teaching CESA without a reg in the mouth.

Again (and I don't want this to sound cruel) be careful about giving advice that's above your pay grade. Instructors are very senitive about being told how to teach. We're especially sensitive about it when it comes from someone who's not an instructor. We're even more sensitive about when it comes from newly-minted DMs or AIs who suddenly think they have all the answers. (See "Assistantitis" above.)

First of all, reg-in-mouth is the standard (at least with NAUI but I think PADI as well). To advocate doing it otherwise is to advocate standards violation.

But there's a practical reason for reg-in-mouth.

When you are OOA, you're not really OOA. The reg needs at least IP (135-150psi) to deliver air. Depth will affect this too, increasing it a bit. So you can be "OOA" with a couple of hundred psi in your tank. (Which is another reason why we advise divers to arrive at the surface with 300-500psi.)

As you ascend, the pressure drops. You will most likely be able to get another breath (albeit a hard one) or two out of the reg. If you have the reg in your mouth, you'll actually get that breath. Even if there's still no air, the worst you will get a closed reg. But you may get another breath of air. And even if you get no air, the act of inhaling against a closed reg may satisfy the air hunger enough to get you to the surface.

With no reg in your mouth, if you take a breath underwater, you WILL get water in your mouth/lungs. That may start the drowning process and that's obviously not good.

So reg-in-mouth - in addition to conforming to standards - gives you the most options for a successful ascent to the surface and probably has the best chance of preventing water from entering the lungs.

Hopefully that all helps. Alaways happy to hear comments on the comments.

 

[rakkis]

You are correct in your assessment of what probably would happen legally.

The thing is, that's just one dimension of the situation. At the end it doesn't matter who does or doesn't pay. I personally think I owe my students more than supplying a policy number. I would feel horrible knowing that something I did contributed to somebody getting hurt.

Yeah some people take risks that are best not taken. Yeah others break standard on a daily basis. That does not give me license to do it.

I encourage you to start off by reading The Law and the Diving Professional. Feel free to read any other source on the matter. Too many DMs (myself included when I started) start off a bit naive about the real responsibility and due care their students deserve. Letting things slide just engender unnecessary risk.

 

[rakkis]

...As a dive professional, you will be held to a different (and sometimes seemingly unreasonable) standard in a court of law...

... reg-in-mouth is the standard (at least with NAUI but I think PADI as well). To advocate doing it otherwise is to advocate standards violation.

Ken is dead on. Deviate from industry-wide practices and you're on your own in a court of law.

 

[fisherdvm]

You guys are over reading my statement "I think she's going to be fine". Fine, means not stroked out. Fine, means not having spinal DCS. Fine, mean she's going to get off the ventilator in a few weeks, and will walk. But I could be wrong. According to Steve, apparently a brief neurological exam was done by a medic, and she did not show obvious defect. Gosh, I am just trying to give the best hope. Gilboa has enough bad news that we don't need to exaggerate more. Another diver in the group said "she must be in shock, they've got blankets over her". Gosh darn it, if you are going to strip a girl naked, cover her up for modesty.

But I appreciate the legalistic analysis. You are screwed if you do, you are screwed if you don't. Can you imagine the stroked out diver saying in court.... I was fine until that gosh%$(@ DM shoved that darn reg into my mouth. I gag, I choked, and this terrible pain stab me in the chest. I would have been fine without him.

In the same analysis, of the shark attack victim a few months ago.... people on the scene said "he probably died of an embolism, cause they tried to stop him from bolting to the surface." Gosh darn, if a shark bit off my leg, I would surely bolt for the surface. Any suckers trying to hold me back, I'll punch him in the face. How else am I going to get a good tourniquet on my leg or direct pressure.

 

[fisherdvm]

This legal issue is very concerning to me. The instructor keeps on assuring me today, that I'll be covered by his insurance. The dive shop also told me the same thing. But, I really, really, really, honestly believe, if I screwed up, and even if I didn't - the one with the deepest pocket is going to get sued, or at least named in a case. And although their insurance might be active, and protect the shop and instructor with legal advice and representation, I still have to get my own lawyer, even if it is just to sit for a deposition.

On the matter of "near drowning", I am not sure if this case will fit the criteria. She did not suffocate, she probably did not have hypoxia, she gagged, but got to the surface quickly. My main concern would be pneumothorax, mediastinal emphysemia, arterial gas emboli, and other barotraumas. All can be serious, dangerous, and perhaps undiagnosed initially.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Thanks for your concern, Rhakis. Technically, I am covered by my instructor's and dive shop's insurance.

No you're not. You don't even remotely meet the definition of Additional Insured (boat, pool, store). Shop insurance (assuming it's through NAUI or PADI) does not cover professional in-water liability. If the shop does provide professional liability coverage (Sport Chalet has such a policy here in SoCal for their instructors) it has many limitations and certainly does NOT cover anyone who is not a dive professional. And if your paperwork has not been finalized by PADI, then that's not you.

Whoever told you that you were covered by the instructor/store policies has given you (based on my understanding of things) very bad advice. If you'd like to discuss this privately, feel free to e-mail me directly.

They might be breaking standards, which means when I screw up - they are likely not going to get covered for injuries caused by my neglect.

I have a real problem with how cavalierly you throw off the phrase "might be breaking standards" like it's no big deal. It IS a big deal, and should be a red flag on all kinds of levels.

And you're right and wrong about your screw-ups, if any. They're not going to need to be covered because they'll argue that there's no professional relationship between you and them, you were acting beyond your level of certification, and therefore they can't be held responsible for anything you did, especially if it could be deemed an independent action.

Their insurance likely WILL cover THEM (and them only) for the fall-out from your screw-up (if any). In Caifornia, courts have ruled a strong "duty-to-defend" as well as there's a desire amongst the insurance companies to nip these things in the bud and if they can push it all off on you, all the better for them.

So you've got no insurance and you're likely not specifically named on the waiver. So if there's a lawsuit that you need to defend (even just to get dismissed from) how deep into your pockets do you want to reach? Legal fees mount up quickly. And if there's a judgement against you, can you say "Kiss your house goodbye"????

I think many instructor's knowingly take such risk daily - having a certified diver watching over one student, while doing a cesa on the line.

Yes, we do take risks daily as instruictors. Our job is to mitigate that risk and not expose others (like you) to more risk. There are other options in the situation you mentioned. Leave the second student with the certified diver on the surface during the CESA. Better still, leave the "unattended" student on the shore. (Easy to do in SoCal at a palce like Casino Point or even off of a boat.)

I've seen single instructor leaving one student unattended, while doing a navigation with another.

That's a big-time standards violation. It also smacks of a lazy instructor. And if you really want to get technical about it (if this was a PADI instructor), as a PADI Professional (DM), you are REQUIRED to report standards violations like this. Not to do so is a standards violation in and of itself on your part.

The two instructors would have been left handling 9 students . . .

If two insturctors can't handle 9 students together, IMHO, they have no business teaching.

. . . and risk management say - a divemaster intern is better than none.

That is a legally untenable position.

To be honest with you, I've seen more than one instructor using certified divers as assitants in groups. Better to have a portable pony than having none.

Bad plan to expose these well-meaning "assistants" to legal risks of which they are likely unaware.

I'm sorry to sound so harsh in all of this but if everything you've saying reflects your understanding of the legal ramifications of assisting, supervising, and teaching diving which should have been covered in your DM course, then it was either covered badly or you simply don't have a full grasp of it.

I have no idea who your DM instructor was but if you know other instructors in your area (who teach for other shops/operations), perhaps getting some second opinions and other perspectives would be a good thing for you.

 

[fisherdvm]

Ken, on your analysis of why it is best to do CESA with a reg. I do understand. What I am getting at is that if you got a wet reg shoved into your mouth, and all you sucked from it is water - you are worse off than before. It is only in that situation would I do cesa without a reg.

What happened in the pool yesterday, I was doing OOA exercise with a student. She gave me her reg, and I blew air to purge it, sucked, and got water. Blew again, sucked, and got water. Pushed the purge button, and sucked, and got water. Stupid me, I could have gotten my reg back. But thinking I am only 6 ft from the surface, and embarrassed myself by bolting to the surface. I should have been calm, but after sucking down 3 mouthful of water, I decided to go to the surface. Hindsight, my darn octo is hanging only inches from my mouth.

 

[fisherdvm]

Actually, the instructor I saw with 2 students was NAUI. I think someone summed it up best, if one likes to help out in a class, get a DM certificate. Not so that you have the skills... but so you can get liability insurance.

An esteemed member of SB once said, the reason why she does not want to do a DM course, is that her instructor said "if you want to assist, you can assist me any time." We forget the legal consequences of our help in a class.

 

[Ayisha]

You were panicking even in a controlled situation in a pool 6 feet from the surface. Even in this situation, you forgot to stop, breathe, and think, whereby you could have switched to your own reg or your own octo. Yet, you think that someone in a "real" emergency is going to remember the protocols, go through the steps, and resist bolting?

It sounds like you may not be quite ready to be a DM candidate yet. You should be extremely comfortable and everything should be second nature before you take responsibility for others.