Newly certified diver OOA at Gilboa

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fisherdvm

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About 1:30 p.m. today, a newly certified diver, I was told - a 22 yo female was ooa. We were finishing up our OW check out dive for the day, and I was watching a group of students on the surface. Suddently, a group of divers was yelling for help, call the ambulance, and to get oxygen. I could not assist, as I was responsible for 9 other student divers. We sent a certified diver from our group to help.

He said, she was just certified, and was diving with an older experienced diver about 35 ft. She ran out of air, and bolted for the surface. A diving class was going on, and apparently someone (instructor or DM perhaps) tried to stop her, but couldn't. She went to the surface, choked on water, hyperventilated, and was towed back.

I watched her sat up a bit, appeared to be in good color, and appeared to be communicating. The fire department arrived first, then the ambulance about 20 minutes later. I am sure she's going to be fine, based on what Steve, one of our tag along certified diver told us.

I guess we can never emphasize enough the need for buddy air check. New divers are so overwhelmed with tasks, that they simply can not remember all the key elements of diving.

On hind sight, I really wonder if a student bolting to the surface should really be stopped. I mean, if they were taught CESA correctly - why don't we just let them hit the surface - especially from a shallow depth. My concern is - unless you have an octo ready to shove into their mouth... Stopping them incompletely (apparently in this case) potentially could cause them to gasp, swallow water, and suffer from laryngospasm? What is a better alternate air? The atmosphere? Or your buddy's octo that was never vacumn tested or sucked on during the day. This also reiterated the logic of donating the primary regulator, rather than the octo.

I understand that I was chastised severely by many instructors (except thallassamania) at the suggestion of teaching CESA without a reg in the mouth. It seems to me that it is a skill that we should think about, especially if that octo you grabbed from your buddy is leaky and giving you only mouthful of water.
 
On hind sight, I really wonder if a student bolting to the surface should really be stopped. I mean, if they were taught CESA correctly - why don't we just let them hit the surface - especially from a shallow depth.

First off Kudos tho those that assisted the new diver in distress and wishes for a full recovery.

To the question quoted I think it's best to try to stop the diver form almost any depth.

In a scenario as you described the diver was down a considerable depth and had lost track of air pressure or had a delivery failure. I'm sure that monitoring one's air supply, staying near a buddy and signaling low air or OOA was taught. With all of those protocols having failed I would not count on performance of a proper CESA. I think there would be a very high likelihood of embolism making the risk of trying to control the situation a good one. I would not be surprised to know that this all happened between buddy checks and the senior diver never had a chance to assist.

I don't think most divers are aware of the possible failure modes of neglected alternate seconds. This is one reason why I try to spend some time on mine every few dives so I know it's in good condition and those that dive with me regularly know it as well.

One also needs to remember that you don't want to force the situation such that 2 divers are injured instead of 1. It ends up being a judgment call based on the precise scenario.

Pete
 
Now that you're a DM, it behooves you to stop making extrapolations on incomplete information. You can only attest to what you personally are witness to. Relying on a third person's account and passing it off as absolute truth opens you to a world of liability.

I'm sure "Steve" is a fine diver and trustworthy person. However, you shouldn't be making a prognosis on someone's condition since you are not the treating physician or responder.

If the situation happened as you described, chances are you are correct, but it would be best for you if you did not pass on unverified information.

More importantly, I hope you realize the risk you directed your "certified diver" to take. If he is not a professional he is under no obligation to do anything. Even if he was someone qualified to help, you have no business making a personal safety judgment-call for him. What if something bad had happened to him while helping the original victim?
 
They asked for help, I couldn't help. I did what I can.

Simply reporting, and asking your professional opinion on what should be done if I were faced with a similar situation. Hopefully you will share what you'd do, rather than criticize my observation.

We had 3 firemen, who are emts in our group. One was a certified diver, and was just observing. I don't know what type of help they needed. Perhaps a strong body, someone to help get her out.... There was about 10 people on the dock, about 4 surrounding the injured diver in the water. I don't think I subjected Steve to any tremendous harm. We also had a lifeguard in our group, but she was a student. When the instructor surfaced (two were under water), I asked him if I should help. He said they had enough (appear at least 1 instructor was present, and oxygen was on her).

The water was calm, the sun was shining, and we were no more than 20 yards from the victim.

I guess also, please explain the "world of liability to me". I am not a journalist, and certainly I don't feel I maliciously prejudiced a criminal or malpractice investigation by hoping for the best.
 
cesa isn't taught with the reg out? mine was, so i thought they all were. hmm.
 
cesa isn't taught with the reg out? mine was, so i thought they all were. hmm.

I was taught both ways. Apparently, many instructors on SB thinks it is a big risk. I still don't think of it as risky, especially if you emphasize that it is best done with a dry reg in your mouth. It can easily be practiced horizontally across the pool. Heck, I do it all the time, in the swimming pool, while swimming.
 
You seem to have misunderstood the aim of my reply. I am not admonishing you for not doing more. I praise your efforts to resolve the situation. My intent was solely to make you aware of the liability you've inherently taken on as a nascent "professional".

What would I have done in the same situation? You did right by making the safety of your group the priority. I would have done that part as well. The fact that Steve is a fireman (and would be ready to help in such a situation) certainly explains your decision.

With that out of the way, let me address the larger issue.

1. You are not officially a DM until your paperwork has been approved by PADI
2. In the US, that will not happen until you have liability insurance
3. According to your earlier posts today, you meet neither of those requirements


Until such time that you meet both those conditions, you are still a student, not a DM and consequently not a Certified Assistant. Therefore, you should not have been on the surface with other students (no matter their rating) without an instructor directly supervising all of you. Consequently, if you were doing things that a prudent professional would do, you would never have been in that situation in the first place.

I urge you to learn from this and apply it if you intend to play the role of a DM during instruction. My advice for you would be to not get ahead of yourself and open yourself up to liability like that until you are a certified DM with insurance. Sure, the only difference is paperwork, but when a grieving family and lawyers are involved, that's enough. Wait until all the paperwork gets done, THEN take on the role of an official DM.

Please understand this is in no way an attempt for me to discredit what you've done. I am saying this out of concern for you, should the sh~t ever hit the fan.


They asked for help, I couldn't help. I did what I can.

Simply reporting, and asking your professional opinion on what should be done if I were faced with a similar situation. Hopefully you will share what you'd do, rather than criticizes on my observation.

We had 3 firemen, who are emts in our group. One was a certified diver, and was just observing. I don't know what type of help they needed. Perhaps a strong body, someone to help get her out.... There was about 10 people on the dock, about 4 surrounding the injured diver in the water. I don't think I subjected Steve to any tremendous harm.

The water was calm, the sun was shining, and we were no more than 20 yards from the victim.
 
A mouth full of nothing is better than a mouth full of water. Reg in mouth. Plus, on accent, there might be a half of breath available as what air is left expands. Heck, they will probably spit the reg in a panic situation anyhow.

It is beyond me how someone runs out of air, other than a mechanical failure.

Bruce
 
I'm sure that monitoring one's air supply, staying near a buddy and signaling low air or OOA was taught. With all of those protocols having failed I would not count on performance of a proper CESA.

Good point. When someone is in full panic mode bolting for the surface, you can be pretty sure they're not remembering to follow protocols. If they were performing a proper CESA, even under duress, it should not look exactly like bolting to the surface.
 
I guess also, please explain the "world of liability to me". I am not a journalist, and certainly I don't feel I maliciously prejudiced a criminal or malpractice investigation by hoping for the best.

Sure.. here's an example. Suppose the situation was resolved before anyone called EMS. Then a well-meaning instructor told the people there that the person "seems alright" after chocking on some water. The diver feels like a dope, but feels glad everyone was there to help him. He is assured by the well meaning instructor and consequently decides not to seek medical treatment/a check up. He then dies later that day from dry-drowning because of the water in his lungs and subsequent edema.

Unless you have professional medical knowledge and have personally examined this person, your opinion can be called in to question. After all, the person decided to not seek further treatment based on what you said. Consequently, it can be argued that this well intended instructor was partially responsible for the diver's death.

I realize that this didn't happen in your situation. My intent is for you to recognize the possibility of that... and get into the habit of not making educated guess and passing them off as what actually happened.

You know nothing more than what you directly saw. Making suppositions and guessing causality are inevitable. Any well-meaning person will try to piece together what happened to learn from it (at the very least). However, expressing these guesses without clearly stating they are guesses is not a good habit to fall into as a professional in charge of others' well-being.
 
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