Newly certified diver OOA at Gilboa

[ERIC.K]

Fisherdvm, after reading your post I too questioned the diver attempting to detain the boldting diver. I witnessed first hand in Coz a DM attempting to stop a bolting diver that resulted in his mask and reg being knocked from his mouth and a head and face laceration to this day my wife and I are not certain how it happened to him. maybe a strap or buckle from the bolting divers fin caught him just right. The truth of the matter is the bolting diver had made an attempt to return to the surface and without her knowlege another attempted to prevent that from happening. The Attempting diver tried to restain the bolting diver without the knowlege of why she was bolting....maybe just maybe the right decision was to cash in the chips and head for the surface. I'm more than aware of AGE from virtually any depth but without research I would have to think that that number would be low. We are all talking about liabilities, could the detaining diver been responsible for the death of a diver by not providing her easy access to the surface? A trial of our peers especially in ohio would include very little divers. So Mr dive master why did you prevent Diver X from getting to the surface where we all knoiw there is plenty of air, Why did you feel a need to grab and prevent diver x from a free accent to the surface at 35 feet? not many non-divers would understand the rational to at least slow a diver. Fisherdvm, I feel your pain, i'm not certain just letting her go wasn't a bad idea

 

[ERIC.K]

Desclimer my me, my last post was purely based on speculation...I wasn't there! lastly Fisherdvm, Scubadiving is a sport for some reason folks just come out of the woodwork to tell you how much they know about diving, sometimes I think its just condecending

 

[oxyhacker]

- The IP is just the point at which a regs 1st cuts off air delivery. If there isn't enough pressure in the tank to reach the IP, the 1st stage on most regs will stay open, flowing whatever little air there is, however slowly. As shown, as others have pointed out in this thread, by the fact that you can breathe through a reg if it is not connected to a tank.

- You get another tankful of air available for every one atmosphere/33' you ascend, but it's a tankful equivilent to the water capacity of the tank at the surface. An aluminum 80 has a water capacity of about 0.4 c.f., so if you ascend with an "empty" tank from 132" to 99' you will gain 0.4 c.f. of air to use, however that's a one-atmosphere surface .4 cf which at 99' is only 0.1 c.f.! So you do not want to hang around for long savoring it! Still this amount is not to be despised, since, if you ascend quickly but in control it can give you enough air to maintain a semblance of normal breathing as you ascend, which is considerably preferable to trying to whistle or hum or bubble the exact amount to avoid AGE but not suffocate.

When I first started diving, I sucked a tank dry at 130'. I did an ascent on my buddy's secondary, then when he stopped (dumb, btw, but what did I know he was the experienced diver) for a safety stop at 15' I was able to breathe my tank for maybe a 30 seconds.

- BTW, there was a Pacific area dive medicine conference some years back which concluded it is much better to keep your 2nd in your mouth, and try to breathe, rather than trying to continuously exhale at just the right rate. Apparently the fluctuating between inhale and exhale mode, even if you don't really have much to exhale or inhale, opens the passages in the lungs better, and is supposedly much more effective at balancing the lung with ambient, than just exhaling. And it leaves you in a position to automatically use whatever air becomes available.

 

[fisherdvm]

Thanks, Vance! I know that this point has been argued many times. And how strongly some feels that there is no more air in that tank, and it is all in the hoses.

For those who don't know, Vance is the author of a great book, Scuba Regulator Maintenance and Repair . http://www.airspeedpress.com/newregbook.html. It is amazing how many things I've learned from that book, and how little one of the scuba technician who taught my PADI specialty course know about the physics of scuba regulator.

Read his book, you will be amazed at the quality and depth of its coverage.

 

[rakkis]

I just called PADI. They said that in the US, you still DON'T have to have malpractice or liability insurance. They highly recommend it, but it is not required.

GS&P, p17:

To remain in Teaching status as a PADI Instructor, or be authorized to conduct various PADI experience programs as a PADI Assistant Instructor or Divemaster, possess and maintain professional liability insurance for dive instruction (unless living/teaching in an area specified by PADI as exempt from insurance requirements).

Apparently, DMs are only required to carry liability insurance in the US if they are leading an instructional program (DSD, certain DM-teachable specialties). However, that is not the case for instructors. Liability applies all the time to stay in teaching status.

 

[24940]

I would prefer to use the remaining tank pressure to inflate my BC at the surface. I've done countless CESA in the 70's and 80's and found it easier to regulate the exhalation without a reg in my mouth. As long as your rate of ascent is controlled, as well as your rate of exhalation, you're golden..... At least in relation to barotrauma. Successful CESA is 95% mental.

As an instructor, how do you know your student is maintaining an open airway if he has a reg in his mouth? Is he blowing bubbles or are you seeing the gas in his reg expanding?

I'm not seeing anything in the SSI standards which indicates that the reg must be in place.

 

[fisherdvm]

Apparently, currently only 24940, Thalassamania, and myself who think it is no big deal to perform or teach CESA without a reg in the mouth. Saying AHHHHH sure use up alot of air, but if you pursed your lips - the exhalation is much better controlled. I think.

I believe I can do a 60 ft CESA across the pool without a reg, but it is sure hard to do it for 20 ft, when you have to make enough vibration so the instructor can feel it with the palm of his hands.

But it is also nice to know that you can still breath from the dry reg as you surface, even if you are "OOA", which truly isn't truly out of air - just as Vance said - it is 0.4 cf per every 33 ft of ascent.

 

[adjuster-jd]

I was at Gilboa yesterday when the fire department arrived - I was at the deep dock getting ready to begin a deep specialty dive with a student when a paramedic came up and asked me where the diver with a problem was. Since we were the only ones at the deep dock, I knew it wasnt on our side and so he went off to the other dock. We watched as all the fire trucks arrived and we could see the crowd on the other dock, but were no anywhere near that to see what happened.
I did talk to Jodie a little bit after the dive but I was not clear on exactly what happened.
Thanks for posting the details as to exactly what went on..

 

[oxyhacker]

Can't be the hoses. You got about a thousand times more space in the tank than in the hoses - 2' of 3/16" hose holds a bit less than a cubic inch, compared to 690 c.i. for the tank. Once you breathe the tank dry, there is no way the hoses are going to have MORE pressure in them than the tank, since the only way the hoses can get pressure is from the tank, and the only way the tank can lose pressure is through the hoses, So the hoses will always be at tank pressure or less, and their effect on the remaining supply of air, as a result, minimal.

And how strongly some feels that there is no more air in that tank, and it is all in the hoses.

 

[Inalara]

Hopefully you will read this before deleting your account.

The only way we learn is by questioning and not just blind acceptance, you have valid opinions (as do others) but the only way we learn is by challenging the staus quo of "facts" that we are taught.

Where we can see a sensible and valid reason, then we carry it on, where not, then maybe a challenge will provoke others to re-assess their view, maybe not, but then nothings been lost.

I was always taught during my dive training that the stupidest question was the one we didn't ask, as it could be the one that made a difference when things go wrong, and that included challenging the instructors to the why not just the how (I had a good instructor).

And more than that I see that as fundamental aid to learning for all of us, no matter what experience levels we are.

So don't delete the account, stick around and raise those questions/issues and queries and accept that sometimes people will not always come across in the written word how they choose to in verbal discussions and some, well sometimes you just have to ignore a post.

After all, if no one challenged what we take for facts, the world would still be viewed as flat...