New policy on lionfish in the park

[firstdive2005]

Hey FIRST DIVE 2005, I am glad you see the need of training and you offerd to train another poster here. How soon would you like to join forces? Can you pay for your airfare, lodging, food, and spend your time on the island training marine park authorized divers? We will gladly accept your help. Please drop us a line, we hope to hear from you soon.

Yes I could afford it.

I dont like a tool that takes two hands to shoot it. Apparently you haven't shot an Hawaiian Sling. You would know that you can either use two hands or one to kill. That's why I like it. I can chase it away from the sponge or coral with my scissors in one hand and get ready to shot with the loaded other hand. Simple.
My JBL sling has two heads, one with the barbed three prong the other a pointed tip. It is capable of extending to six feet. I use the two foot length. My sling strap is adjustable and easy to replace when worn.
While I love the yarn about spending 25k on a five dollar tool made here I will not be convinced of it's better use. Also it is not the only tool used on Bonaire. That is quite a good one.

One thing I will say is we all want this to be done. That is some sort of control on the Lion Fish population on the west side of Cozumel particularly the park.
For sure our efforts to date are effective. If anyone dives the whole reef in one week to one hundred feet or less and then dives outside the park to those depths the sighting of the Lion Fish is scary.
The analogy of the mosquito control is the same in Edmonton. When I go to towns that do not use this larvae control the little buggers are nauseating. This is what will be the case for Coz.

Maybe training and permanently hiring trained divers to kill the lion fish EVERY DAY is the answer. Then the dms can go back to their first love, to dive and show people what they love. That is not hard to see as a solution. I can see that working. I dont see the need to jam a tool down the throats of those that are professional at the craft of what ever tool works for them.
I say this because the ELF tool can hit the reef. To say it can't is irresponsible. To say it is 100% fool proof is also irresponsible and a great sales ploy. At least say it because it's now considered, right. An old car sale ploy. I would swallow that it is effective and I can see it being effective, but not the be all end all tool.
And addendum to my point of the small army of hired divers needed to complete the daily task; oh that's it, a small army is needed.

 

[firstdive2005]

How does photography damage the reef? I have never heard that said before. Or are you just talking about how divers with poor buoyancy control damage things while maneuvering for a picture?

Yes it is about the bouyancy. Also divers will settle on the reef to get the shot. They will also hold onto barrel sponges etc to get the shot. Even laying on the sand is bad as there is tons of life out of sight just under the sand top. It is not just the divers with poor skills, it's the good photographers with poor care of the reef that I get mad at.
I had the fortune of diving with a great underwater photographer in December. I modeled on some dives for him. His skills and care to never disturb was brilliant. I only wish others would be like that.

 

[Texas Torpedo]

The enemy is not the Marine Park or the makers of the ELF tool, the enemy is the lionfish.
The makers of the ELF tool have spent over 25k of their own money
developing a tool, testing and producing a solid training program.

Greetings Sock Puppet...

You seem to have intimate knowledge on how much they spent developing the ELF and training program.... Care to also elaborate on how much they/you have profited off both? Please spare me the tales of benevolence and giving... They/you are in this to make money..

As I read about all the "experts" who know what and how best to do this, every country and Marine park will have all kinds of "cowboys" blasting away and hitting reefs and killing other marine life.

It sounds like you consider yourself an expert in the field of lionfish hunting and the rest of us that do not use the ELF and are not trained by little ElFF'ers are simply "cowboys"..

I've spent many a day up north of the marine park spearing lionfish, along with many other local "cowboys" and guest divers. I've never seen anyone damage the reef spearing them and certainly none have hit other "marine life". It doesn't take a class or specialized training.. It takes good/great diving skills (excellent buoyancy, finning techniques, situational awareness, etc) and that is something their / your "class" won't teach anyone..

The problem is the lionfish invasion is going to destroy diving and fishing, but in the process, a measured response is to choose the best training and methods available. The original ELF tools have been on thousands of dives and still work great. It is the safest tool on the reef and with training no one will be hitting the reef or blasting up sponges. I read of one diver, bragging how careful he is as he chases the lionfish out of a sponge and then if he is a good shot shooting them. Well what happens if he misses, and a lionfish eventually learns to hide from divers and become more difficult to kill. The divers on Bonaire where only the ELF is used say they get 100% of the fish they target. They have all been trained and certified to hunt lionfish.
The developers of the ELF tool approached the Marine Park and governments to see their plan and objectives. They met with scores of divers and tried numerous changes to come up with the final version. They have the tools serialized and recorded. They spend more money on the raw material to make them durable than others sell their units for. So, there is a huge difference.
Most of all they spend considerable time and effort updating divers on the best way to hunt lionfish and NOT molest the reefs.
After extensive research, development, and working closely with marine parks & accredited universities, Dr's & scientists, we have aquired a leading edge knowlede base. I know of no program other than Reef Protection incorporateds with any knowledge of the parasites being found on Lionfish

I love it when a maker of a product shows up in a forum talking about their wares as if they were someone else...

The makers of the ELF tool have spent over 25k of their own money
developing a tool, testing and producing a solid training program

After extensive research, development, and working closely with marine parks & accredited universities, Dr's & scientists, WE have aquired a leading edge knowlede base. I know of no program other than Reef Protection incorporateds with any knowledge of the parasites being found on Lionfish

Congrats on getting in bed with the marine parks.. You obviously have bs'ing them down to a science considering they are going to mandate the exclusive use of your "tool".. Which is NO BETTER than many others, and definitely not any more accurate. Accuracy, like buoyancy, is what counts.. And as someone else in this thread mentioned, your cute little ELF puts the operators hand much closer to lionfish than I would be comfortable with.. And unless you stone larger lionfish with the ELF, it is likely going to bolt right off the shaft.. Should it survive the wound, you can bet nobody will ever get a chance to spear it again..

 

[Texas Torpedo]

The one tool they're authorizing, the ELF, is too small. Might be OK now but when you come up against an 18-inch lionfish you'll see what I mean.

You are absolutely correct...

I've hunted with a variety of tools... One of my favorites for larger lionfish is a mini Beauchat spear gun with a barbed trident tip.. On occasion I've stoned / killed them outright, but better than 50% of the time they fight / try to flee.. If I wasn't using a barbed trident or paralyzer tip, they would be gone.. Even so, once or twice I have had them get off a paralyzer and I had to chase them down. It is hard to see how a single shaft will do anything other than injure them on most occasions, unless they are pinned to the sand or reef..

 

[geokr]

You are absolutely correct...

I've hunted with a variety of tools... One of my favorites for larger lionfish is a mini Beauchat spear gun with a barbed trident tip.. On occasion I've stoned / killed them outright, but better than 50% of the time they fight / try to flee.. If I wasn't using a barbed trident or paralyzer tip, they would be gone.. Even so, once or twice I have had them get off a paralyzer and I had to chase them down. It is hard to see how a single shaft will do anything other than injure them on most occasions, unless they are pinned to the sand or reef..

Yeah. Exactly. Don't think the park will ever allow spear guns but outside they would work just fine especially with the bigger lionfish who are sometimes less docile and can show more defensive/aggressive behavior. Guess that's how they got to be big lionfish . Somebody, think it was Kevin, mentioned the JBL which I've used once and is another perfect tool for the job. Hope the park comes around before it's too late. Seriously, if you like hunting lionfish try Stuart Cove's in Nassau. The reefs to the southwest are definitely a "target rich environment". Also, I'll add, the Bahamian Governtment and the Fisheries Department aren't too fussy about what you use, just kill 'em....

 

[1KWIK_69]

Greetings Sock Puppet...

You seem to have intimate knowledge on how much they spent developing the ELF and training program.... Care to also elaborate on how much they/you have profited off both? Please spare me the tales of benevolence and giving... They/you are in this to make money..



It sounds like you consider yourself an expert in the field of lionfish hunting and the rest of us that do not use the ELF and are not trained by little ElFF'ers are simply "cowboys"..

I've spent many a day up north of the marine park spearing lionfish, along with many other local "cowboys" and guest divers. I've never seen anyone damage the reef spearing them and certainly none have hit other "marine life". It doesn't take a class or specialized training.. It takes good/great diving skills (excellent buoyancy, finning techniques, situational awareness, etc) and that is something their / your "class" won't teach anyone..




I love it when a maker of a product shows up in a forum talking about their wares as if they were someone else...





Congrats on getting in bed with the marine parks.. You obviously have bs'ing them down to a science considering they are going to mandate the exclusive use of your "tool".. Which is NO BETTER than many others, and definitely not any more accurate. Accuracy, like buoyancy, is what counts.. And as someone else in this thread mentioned, your cute little ELF puts the operators hand much closer to lionfish than I would be comfortable with.. And unless you stone larger lionfish with the ELF, it is likely going to bolt right off the shaft.. Should it survive the wound, you can bet nobody will ever get a chance to spear it again..

Very well said! These guys actually think we can't just see right through them. Their motive is obviously profit, and I'm sure kick backs are part of it, Acting like they're somehow more qualified to tell people how to hunt lionfish than those that make thier living from diving, and have been killing lionfish every day for two years is ridiculous.

 

[Aggiebq86]

Not sure if anyone else has commented on this but I don't like some design aspects of the ELF. First the length of it puts you extremely close to the lionfish before you shoot them. This combined with it requiring both hands to use would make me uneasy.

 

[Coral-Reefer]

It would make me feel really sad if I killed anything in the marine park, except a lionfish. I cannot explain it, but it would not bother me at all if I speared one and cut its head off. Out of respect for the rules of the park (which would not allow me to kill one in the first place), I would not want to kill a lionfish without having the recommended training on procedures, etc. When I return to the island I will go north out of the park and with the help and instruction from my DM, kill a bunch.

The ELF tool seems to be a convenient tool to use but not much better than some of the homemade ones I have seen on the island. If the manufacturers have the desire and ability to market their wares for the price they want, good for them, let the market determine its worth. If you think it is too expensive don't buy it. If the selling of the tool or the effect of such is taking money from local DM's, then yes, I would certainly be sympathetic to the DM's cause.

Having said that, I will repeat what I have mentioned before, that I hope the DM's in the park do not become so obsessed with hunting lionfish that they forget what they are being paid to do, which is guiding their divers. When a DM is totally focused on finding LF there is no way they can be as good as they can be at finding other critters for their divers to experience. The DM's know so much more about what to look for when searching for things for us to see that we depend on them to do so.

The last time I was there (January) with 10 dives through the week, all in the park, we saw 2 LF. The DM killed one and the other disappeared into the reef. I agree that the problem probably is not going to go away, but with control, the effect could be minimized in the park. Smarter people than me, and most are, can shed light on the effects of blooming populations elsewhere around the island on the marine park. I like the idea of "eradication teams" going through to kill them.

To all of the DM's reading this, just remember that we, the customers, appreciate you and really depend on you to help us have as enjoyable of an experience as possible when we dive in Cozumel.

 

[cvchief]

not trained by little ElFF'ers

Elff'ers...... :rofl4:

 

[scubadada]

After visiting SE FL several times, unarmed, I bought myself a Liontamer ($40 incl shipping) lion fish liontamer. This weapon is easy to carry and easy to use. I was 3 for 3 on my first hunt with fish between small and medium-large. Lionfish eradication can be performed by many divers, at low cost, and safely. This is not rocket science and should not cost as much.

Good diving, Craig