Neutrally Buoyant vs Kneeling - What is Better whilst teaching Scuba Diving skills?

[James79]

A full fin pivot has you in a 45° angle much of the time, which defeats the horizontal trim aspect.

I guess it was my turn to be not clear! What you clarified as "near fin pivot" is more what I envisioned, prone with inhale causing slight rise and fin tips probably still in contact with the pool floor.
Thank you very much for the clarification!
Respectfully
James

 

[HKGuns]

I don't mean to pick on you, but this is very much typical of the responses I get when I (or others) talk about it. The conversations usually go like this, although I have admittedly exaggerated the terms being used.

Advocate: I have taught scuba both ways, and I am amazed at how much better this approach works.
Resistor: I have only seen and done instruction on the knees, but I have such a powerful imagination that I can clearly visualize how bad it would be to do it that other way.

The truth is that the students find this easier than doing it on their knees. Until you see the difference, you will not understand the obstacles and problems created by being on the knees.

I could stand on my head for 6 months if required. You're an instructor, I am a student. I don't feel picked on and trust your experience is more informed than mine.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I just shake my head as it is 2020, 9 years since @boulderjohn, @Peter Guy, Lynne Flaherty and others wrote this article: http://utahscubadiver.com/wp-content/uploads/USJ2Q11.pdf.

I find it frustrating that the demonstration videos here don't actually demonstrate neutral buoyancy. Having your fin tips resting on the bottoms means that you are not neutrally buoyant. I don't care if any agency wants to redefine neutral buoyancy. Any such attempt to do so is invalid.

The tenacity in resisting to adopt superior methods of teaching has astounded me. I took direction from ScubaBoard, specifically @boulderjohn, @Peter Guy, @The Chairman, and a few others to try teaching this way.

And the differences surprised me. The beauty is, I didn't invent one thing. Nothing I do hasn't been taken from other far more experienced instructors who have been generous with the techniques they developed that shortened the amount of time for me to catch up partway.

I didn't expect that I would require less time to get through all the confined water skills. By spending time in the beginning in getting students comfortable in the water (@Peter Guy generously assisted me in one of my classes, passing on these skills Simple exercises for students not completely comfortable with having their faces in the water | Facebook). Now since I don't teach for PADI anymore, I continue after the above skills with skin diving/snorkeling skills and finning practice (cannot be done in CW1 with PADI, at least per the 2018 IM). I got this idea from reading a comment by Mark Powell. For finning practice, I have students frog kicking on the surface on their backs. I got this idea from Mike van Splunteren. Once students are comfortable with their faces in the water, exhaling through their nose only when appropriate, and getting them comfortable with the power of their fins, then and only then do I move onto weighting them (which I describe here: Never on the knees: Open Water Scuba Classes | Facebook).

Having students properly weighted, neutrally buoyant, and fairly trim (no fins on the bottom) the rest of the confined water skills are a breeze in comparison of having overweighted students placed on their knees. Rather than struggle to get the students through with limited pool time, I now have time for games that people shared in this thread: "Games" for open water classes (pool sessions)

So yeah, teaching neutrally buoyant (not what I see in Marcel's video) and trim is a superior way to teach. Don't take my word for it. Don't take students word for it as they suffer from Dunning-Kruger. Listen to the people who dive with those students right after open water. Those people provide the honest feedback.

I've heard @The Chairman say how he was told that it was impossible to teach the way he taught. Well, it is possible, just not by those naysayers.

The reality is, scuba diving instruction is a business, and no agency, no matter how mediocre of training is provided by their instructors, wants to disrupt that. That's why it has taken 9 years to make a baby step of giving IDC candidates a 5 for only 2 skills: mask removal, replacement, and clear; and regulator recovery; if the skill conducted neutrally buoyant. They can get a 3 performing on their knees and move on. That's why we have this nonsense of calling neutral buoyancy with resting fin tips.

The incompetence that festers in this industry is like stage 4 cancer. You don't get rid of it so easily. I don't expect that when it has been 20 years since that article was published that we'll see IDC candidates required to perform all skills the correct definition of neutrally buoyant and trim.

Rant over.

 

[TMHeimer]

I only DMd 4 years of OW courses, so I am far from an expert. Plus many know my thoughts on this, so I'll post only once here.

HKGuns says learning neutrally would've been distracting. Boulderjohn, like several other well-known instructors says learning neutrally from the get go is easier.
IMHO it really doesn't matter very much.
I read through the OP's full article and couldn't really find anything to disagree with.
I should add that of course everyone should be properly weighted before doing any skills, on knees or neutrally. Also that if someone must do this or that to get used to having their FACE IN THE WATER they probably should not be in a scuba course at that time.

My take on it has to do with what the newly certified diver does AFTER certification.
I do believe that courses taught neutrally from the start do produce better divers by the time they get to the checkout dives. Though, no matter what anyone says, I do agree that starting right in neutrally adds another stressor if you are also attempting to do a skill, such as mask clearing. I will never be in a pool again, so I guess my thought on that will forever remain rigid, because in my mind it is logical.

The diver taught everything (well, a lot of things) in the pool kneeling will probably have way more buoyancy problems at the checkout dives in the ocean. I've seen this. I've also seen better student divers on OW dive1 when more time was spent neutrally in the pool (not even necessarily doing any of the 24 skills, just more time swimming around and practicing hovering). I think neutrally taught divers will be much more ready to immediately take a dive trip to the tropics and jump off a boat. But--- if they don't dive regularly locally a fair bit soon after certification, the advantage over the "kneelers" most likely will disappear.
The kneelers (like me in 2005, and most of the 20-30 staff members I worked with) will probably need what-- 5 or 10 post cert. dives to fine tune their buoyancy. Yes, I said fine tune. It's not rocket science. All of us came out of the kneeling course and did quite well for ourselves. But, that's by diving regularly soon after certification. If it's such a major problem developing good buoyancy because you learned skills kneeling or didn't get a lot of practice in the course, then you probably had too little general water experience to begin with (don't want to get into some of the people who "passed" the 200 meter swim-- somehow, barely avoiding a heart attack at age 23).
If the few instances of frustration the "kneelers" may have in those 5-10 post-cert. dives is enough for them to get discouraged and quit that's fine with me. Don't want them stirring up the bottom near me anyway.

Final thought-- Logic tells me that since those in favour of neutral from the start say it's just as easy (or easier) to do the skills (like all what, 6 of them that are appropriate at most?) neutrally rather than kneeling, my take is that the reason teaching every minute neutrally is better is because of the whole class having to be neutral all the time while watching one person do the skill. Not because the skill itself is being done neutrally.
I never gave a thought to finding a good place to kneel to clear my mask. But on another thread I was told that many kneelers do this in their first few dives. Will always have trouble wrapping my head around that one.

When I took OW (kneeling) in 2005:
Vague because it was 15 years ago, but I don't THINK we did a weight check at the ocean. Probably because that takes time in November water in Nova Scotia. So, I assume I was somewhat overweighted.
First checkout dive-- some buoyancy ups & downs. Nothing wild like corking to the surface
OW dives 2,3,4-- I don't RECALL such problems. Maybe I gradually got the hang of it to a decent degree.
Dive 4-- I finished skills first so had a nice time with a DM to tour around to 30'. Buoyancy seemed not too bad at all.

 

[boulderjohn]

I do agree that starting right in neutrally adds another stressor if you are also attempting to do a skill, such as mask clearing. I will never be in a pool again, so I guess my thought on that will forever remain rigid, because in my mind it is logical.

Mask clearing is a good example of the difference.

In clearing the mask students are told to tilt their heads back while exhaling through the nose. What is the purpose of tilting the head back? When a diver is in a normal diving position, the face is tilted downward. In order for the water to run out of the bottom of the mask, the bottom of the mask must be the lowest point. If it isn't, some water will be trapped in the bottom of the mask. Therefore, students are taught to tilt the head back to make the bottom of the mask the lowest point.

When a student is kneeling, the bottom of the mask is already at the lowest point--there is no need to tilt the head back. In fact, tilting the head back is somewhat counterproductive. The student can therefore clear the mask easily while doing the skill incorrectly. That is why in diving you see so many divers swing their whole bodies to vertical to clear their masks--they were never taught to do it correctly, because they were taught to do it on their knees.

A friend was teaching an intro to tech class in a pool to a woman who was a Master Instructor--the step below Course Director. In their first pool session in doubles, he demonstrated clearing the mask while they were hovering in trim. She immediately went to her knees and performed a beautiful mask clear. He indicated that she needed to do it again, and he demonstrated again. She again got on her knees. He finally had to go to the surface to explain the problem, and this master instructor who had logged thousands of dives admitted that she had never cleared her mask without swinging her body to vertical.

Beginning divers taught to do it in horizontal trim have no trouble dong it, and they do it correctly from that point onward.

 

[TMHeimer]

Mask clearing is a good example of the difference.

In clearing the mask students are told to tilt their heads back while exhaling through the nose. What is the purpose of tilting the head back? When a diver is in a normal diving position, the face is tilted downward. In order for the water to run out of the bottom of the mask, the bottom of the mask must be the lowest point. If it isn't, some water will be trapped in the bottom of the mask. Therefore, students are taught to tilt the head back to make the bottom of the mask the lowest point.

When a student is kneeling, the bottom of the mask is already at the lowest point--there is no need to tilt the head back. In fact, tilting the head back is somewhat counterproductive. The student can therefore clear the mask easily while doing the skill incorrectly. That is why in diving you see so many divers swing their whole bodies to vertical to clear their masks--they were never taught to do it correctly, because they were taught to do it on their knees.

A friend was teaching an intro to tech class in a pool to a woman who was a Master Instructor--the step below Course Director. In their first pool session in doubles, he demonstrated clearing the mask while they were hovering in trim. She immediately went to her knees and performed a beautiful mask clear. He indicated that she needed to do it again, and he demonstrated again. She again got on her knees. He finally had to go to the surface to explain the problem, and this master instructor who had logged thousands of dives admitted that she had never cleared her mask without swinging her body to vertical.

Beginning divers taught to do it in horizontal trim have no trouble dong it, and they do it correctly from that point onward.

John, I understand what you're saying and believe you. It is foreign to me why someone would swing their whole body to clear a mask (thousands of dives no less) because they were taught it kneeling. Rather than simply adjusting to the proper angle while swimming along. I guess I just assumed that's what you do. Is it just me?

 

[Rickk]

......
I never gave a thought to finding a good place to kneel to clear my mask. But on another thread I was told that many kneelers do this in their first few dives. Will always have trouble wrapping my head around that one.

Not a diving example but one that shows that people practice what they were taught. I cannot vouch for the accuracy but was told this by an former member of the Royal Marines who was around when it happened.

During the Falklands War the Royal Marines suffered an unusually high number of causalities out of a few basic recruit courses. When they looked into this it was traced back to an instructor who was so overweight that when the recruits were on an exercise and had their weapon jam be could not bend down to look at it to instruct on how to clear.

He had them kneel to show him that the weapon was cleared and safe before they resumed the training.

You guessed it, in combat, under enemy fire, these guys would get off their bellies where the bullets were going over their heads and kneel to try to clear their weapons, with predictable results.

People practice as they are trained, while it is common to say that practice makes perfect and the full skill will develop over time, all practice does is make permanent.

I did OW in the 90's and was only given fin pivots to learn how neutral buoyancy felt, it was one of the very first skills after getting comfortable breathing under water. Then after being neutral I was taught the other skills in a hover position. I am only now realizing that this was not common practice back then.

It took many post certification dives to get really comfortable and good at maintaining buoyancy but I always knew where I was heading and could determine out what was wrong.

If you look at what good divers spend the majority of their time doing, it is swimming in a horizontal neutral position. Why this is not considered a fundamental skill worthy of a training dive or two as part of the basic course is beyond me.

It is like teaching people how to back up a car into a parallel parking spot but not teaching them how to drive in a straight line to get to the spot. Teach them to drive straight to the parking area, position the car best to back up, then teach them how to back up into the spot.

FWIW I did OW in the tropics in shorts and a tee shirt, but AOW in cold lakes with a heavy wet suit then quickly moved on to dry suit. The different gear configurations, cold low vis water compared to clear warm water added to my initial difficulties but I know what was the right way and knew enough to head in that direction.

 

[boulderjohn]

I thought I would talk about the other introductory skills, and I will start with regulator recovery. With PADI, students learn two methods: sweep and reach.

SWEEP
With the sweep method students are taught to lean to the right, reach out in front with their right hands, and sweep the arm along the side to catch the regulator on the arm and bring it to the front.

A kneeling student leaning to the right will tip over with too much lean, so they often don't do it enough to bring the regulator away from the body. They often do not touch the hip as they should and do not get the regulator on the first try because it is too close to the body.

Leaning to the right when neutral and horizontal is a completely different skill compared to kneeling. It takes very little lean to do more than bring the regulator away from the body--it usually swings out in front of the student's arm before the student begins the sweep. You have to make them do the sweep to fulfill the sill requirement, but they actually get the regulator pretty much as soon as they lean to the right.

REACH
With the reach method, the students need to reach over their shoulders and past their right ear to get to the missing hose and then pull the hose over the shoulder.

With a kneeling student, gravity pulls the tank down, back, and away from the back. This is especially true since students generally do not kneel perfectly upright but instead usually have a backward lean, making that problem worse. They therefore often have trouble reaching the hose. For that reason, a step is usually added to the skill--they have to reach back with the left hand and lift the tank to get it close enough to reach it. When I did my IDC, the course director made this skill a focus because it is so often poorly done.

With a horizontal student, gravity puts the tank right where is belongs, and the hose is right behind the right ear. The most common student problem is reaching past it at first because the student expects the skill to be harder than it is.

SUMMARY
As with mask clearing, kneeling students have to do the skill incorrectly because they are vertical. They learn that the reach method is really hard and do not use it when asked to do one or the other on the open water dive. Neutral, horizontal students learn to do it as it is done while diving, and they learn that the easiest and surest way to get it is using the reach method.

In terms of class time, these skills are usually mastered in a fraction of the time it takes kneeling students.

 

[boulderjohn]

Here is a description of the introductory alternative air source skill. Students are required to secure and use an alternative air source from a buddy. The precise methodology is not described, so any method or type of equipment can be used.

Kneeling students have to be positioned next to each other, pretty much chest to chest, since they can't move. For those with a traditional setup, the alternate air sources in the traditional golden triangle are right there for the plucking, easily available, whether you are doing secondary donate or secondary take as your preferred methodology.

Neutrally buoyant and horizontal students start farther apart, with the OOA diver swimming toward the donor while signalling OOA. This is how it will be in the real world. Any method can be taught, but when you see it in action and see where the alternate in the golden triangle is in relation to the OOA diver (i.e., hidden), primary donate becomes a very attractive option.

 

[boulderjohn]

John, I understand what you're saying and believe you. It is foreign to me why someone would swing their whole body to clear a mask (thousands of dives no less) because they were taught it kneeling. Rather than simply adjusting to the proper angle while swimming along. I guess I just assumed that's what you do. Is it just me?

That argument was actually what PADI originally said to me when I did what I just did in this thread and showed them that with kneeling students, all the skills are originally taught incorrectly. The initial response fro PADI was, well, sure they learn it wrong in class, but they learn to do it correctly when they go out and get diving experience.

I pointed out that it would make a lot of sense to teach them to do it right the first time.

In the initial article, the compromise we reached was the single sentence that students taught to do skills on the knees should subsequently be taught to do them in horizontal trim, preferably in the same session. I have had many conversations with that person in the intervening years, and I assure you he is now firmly in the camp of teaching it right the first time.