My kind of America

[Nick_W]

I see now; then you should understand the disparity, but you may not be aware of the mindset involved in the civilian ROE so to speak.

You are dead bang on in your experience with the police range, most are like that. The rangemaster in my old place carried a .38 caliber pencil to bring the bosses' scores up when they were doing annual qualifications.

The LE mindset that leads to spray and pray is based in part on a lack of training and part on a lack of preparedness and part on the job itself. Police officers spend 99% of their time doing things that do not call for confrontation or deadly force, .5% of their time involves confrontation. Many officers never are called upon to use deadly force. Many police officers were never in a fight prior to joining the police department and many were never in the service.

New officers are hammered with the liability idea, if they make a mistake they get sued, this makes many reluctant to act, it makes others overreact. This short circuits responses so that the responses do not appear to make sense outside of the context. The bottom line is that law enforcement folks are put in the position of being angry, frustrated, sometimes injured, then called upon to use force, up to and including deadly force, then providing first aid to the bad guy they injured. This creates a set of responses that sometimes make little sense.

My first day on the job we went to the range to qualify with our .38 revolvers. I was wearing a USMC t shirt and was told by the rangemaster that he had "never seen a Marine shoot a pistol worth a..." so I shot a perfect score for him.... many of us had a difficult time changing our responses to threats, real and percieved...

In order to familiarize the recruits with the effects of CS gas the class was seated on a set of bleachers, the rangemaster walked behind the class and pulled the pin on a CS grenade, when he let the spoon fly I was off the bleachers and behind a berm, there were a couple of us sharing space behind the berm because we knew at a gut level what a spoon flying presaged......

The point is that military responses and civilian LE responses really are vastly different, and it would be great to have civilian officers trained to the level of Recon Marines, but the funding and manpower are not there and the missions are so fundamentally different that there will be a difference of opinion on what the desired outcome should be


Semper Fi

This all makes perfect sense. I'm still a fan of holding those who carry firearms, especially SWAT team members, to a higher standard though. I certainly understand that there is no way they can get the amount of weapons training I had to go through, nor would I really wish that upon anyone. But it would be nice to know that at least those special units had enough training that they could provide a bit more of a reasoned response than this.

And of course there is also the problem that more and more police departments are being equipped like the military, but not trained like the military. That is kind of scary if you ask me.

Semper Fi.

 

[adurso]

I forgot to add this; the running a mile and shooting at the 7 yard target is an exercise in accuracy designed for the recruits who are not in shape to run a mile and who are not practised with handguns. The end result is that they spray rounds all over the target because they are huffing and puffing and shaking and sometimes puking from the run. The data shows typical police shootout distance is 7 yards average and that only 20% of the rounds fired hit the target. This exercise brings that home to the recruit. I have also done it with civilians during a "citizen academy".

This exercise has no significant impact on people that run regularly and are experienced with handguns.

 

[Nick_W]

I forgot to add this; the running a mile and shooting at the 7 yard target is an exercise in accuracy designed for the recruits who are not in shape to run a mile and who are not practised with handguns. The end result is that they spray rounds all over the target because they are huffing and puffing and shaking and sometimes puking from the run. The data shows typical police shootout distance is 7 yards average and that only 20% of the rounds fired hit the target. This exercise brings that home to the recruit. I have also done it with civilians during a "citizen academy".

This exercise has no significant impact on people that run regularly and are experienced with handguns.

That makes sense. I was personally trying really hard to see how running a mile and then shooting from seven yards was difficult.

Of course, I would like to think that your average cop wouldn't find running a mile and firing from seven yards to be difficult either, but sadly that's not really the case.

One thing I always tried to impress upon people in my firearms class in an attempt to get them to take it seriously was that no, most likely they will never need to use their firearm. But in that rare case where they do need it, they really need it. Its not like not mastering writing in cursive. No one ever died because they could't do that.

I had one or two who took that to heart and really tried to improve. But for the most part they all went on with the attitude of "I'll never need it".

 

[adurso]

This all makes perfect sense. I'm still a fan of holding those who carry firearms, especially SWAT team members, to a higher standard though. I certainly understand that there is no way they can get the amount of weapons training I had to go through, nor would I really wish that upon anyone. But it would be nice to know that at least those special units had enough training that they could provide a bit more of a reasoned response than this.

And of course there is also the problem that more and more police departments are being equipped like the military, but not trained like the military. That is kind of scary if you ask me.

Semper Fi.

I am old enough that the acronym SWAT did not exist when we started specialized units. One of the sergeants came around and grabbed vets and said "hey, if you volunteer for this you get lots of ammo" so some did. Pagers the size of cinderblocks were handed out that were tone only, a bag with weapons, to be carried at all times, and allowed to use the range at odd hours, because we had to do our regular jobs to boot and got to train on our own time.


Bear in mind this was a long time ago and specialized units are better organized today.

The scary part are the regular officers who train even less who are the ones involved in most of the police related shootings. Scary in the potential for officer injury or death due to lack or practice or training and scary sometimes in the potential for other harm

 

[adurso]

That makes sense. I was personally trying really hard to see how running a mile and then shooting from seven yards was difficult.

Of course, I would like to think that your average cop wouldn't find running a mile and firing from seven yards to be difficult either, but sadly that's not really the case.

One thing I always tried to impress upon people in my firearms class in an attempt to get them to take it seriously was that no, most likely they will never need to use their firearm. But in that rare case where they do need it, they really need it. Its not like not mastering writing in cursive. No one ever died because they could't do that.

I had one or two who took that to heart and really tried to improve. But for the most part they all went on with the attitude of "I'll never need it".

As a boss part of my job was to hold a weapon inspection each month, the accidental discharges and other horrorshow events caused me to inform a platoon that I would be holding an inspection on a certain day and they were to have their weapons on the desk, unloaded, hands off with the cylinder open (in those days) or with the slide locked and magazine out (more modern times). BEFORE I came in the room... And many of them still had unsat weapons and still managed to shoot holes in the ceilings....

The running the mile and shooting is no biggie to a person in moderate condition with minimal weapons experience; but for those out of shape with no weapons experience the 20% hit at 7 yards works out real well

 

[Nick_W]

I am old enough that the acronym SWAT did not exist when we started specialized units. One of the sergeants came around and grabbed vets and said "hey, if you volunteer for this you get lots of ammo" so some did. Pagers the size of cinderblocks were handed out that were tone only, a bag with weapons, to be carried at all times, and allowed to use the range at odd hours, because we had to do our regular jobs to boot and got to train on our own time.

Wow, so that must have sucked having to carry that musket and all that lead around with you back then.

The scary part are the regular officers who train even less who are the ones involved in most of the police related shootings. Scary in the potential for officer injury or death due to lack or practice or training and scary sometimes in the potential for other harm

Yeah, it is pretty scary. Sadly enough I've had more than one officer on the range drop their weapon when the loud bang scared them. I'm not really sure what they expected to happen. Frightening that there are officers like that walking the streets with a handgun.

 

[adurso]

Wow, so that must have sucked having to carry that musket and all that lead around with you back then.

Yeah, I should have stayed out of Tun's Tavern that day...

Yeah, it is pretty scary. Sadly enough I've had more than one officer on the range drop their weapon when the loud bang scared them. I'm not really sure what they expected to happen. Frightening that there are officers like that walking the streets with a handgun.

Yep, but they are doing the best they can for the most part with what they are given. Most people do not come on the job as shooters, they want to help people, right wrongs, put on the Superman suit and fight for truth, justice and the American way, without a true realization of what the job really entails.

 

[SteveAD]

The article said it was a 10 man swat team, so that is only an avearge of 11 shots fired per man. The article also stated that Spiers (initial deputy) exchanged fire with the suspect. The artcle was unclear whether or not Williams (deputy executed by the scumbag) got off any shots of his own. No matter how you look at it, the cops involved fired an average of fewer that 10 rounds each. Against a suspect who was not merely armed and dangerous, but had actually killed one deputy and a police dog, and shot and injured a second deputy, I would say the swat team was fairly restrained. Studies have shown that most officers involved in an exchange of fire will continue to fire until they need to reload.

 

[Nick_W]

Yeah, I should have stayed out of Tun's Tavern that day...

Yep, but they are doing the best they can for the most part with what they are given. Most people do not come on the job as shooters, they want to help people, right wrongs, put on the Superman suit and fight for truth, justice and the American way, without a true realization of what the job really entails.

Kind of like the kid who joins the Army and then says "no one ever told me I'd have to go to war!"

 

[Fish_Whisperer]

Kind of like the kid who joins the Army and then says "no one ever told me I'd have to go to war!"

Oh man... There was a guy in my aviation unit who tried to register as a conscientious objector when Desert Shield started. After that, he seemed to have fairly constant and regular incidents of "running into trees." (Especially out on the flight line and behind the hangar, where there weren't any trees.)