My kind of America

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Only missed 42 times. Fired 110 rounds... "I am" a shooter And in order to maneuver on your target you need to suppress your target to keep his head down so he can't shoot back. I think that 110 round is pretty disciplined. 68 hits can take a good SWAT team second to achieve.

The concept of suppression fire is a myth created by those who wish to justify bad shooting. Every shot should be well aimed at the intended target. If you're providing cover for a team member who is in an exposed position then you continue to aim in the direction of the target and fire only when you have a shot. You don't just pray and spray and hope you're getting close enough to scare the guy into staying down.

I worked with some of the best marksmen the U.S. military has to offer. If we so desired we could easily put 68 rounds into a target in a heartbeat. The point is there is really no reason to ever do so. Especially at close range 68 rounds isn't going to do any more than a well-disciplined, well-aimed, well-placed double tap will.

Granted, SWAT tactics can be different in that they don't have to worry about conserving ammo for the next firefight or that ambush on the way back home, but I still have a hard time, for reasons I've already pointed out, justifying their actions in this case.
 
That the average cop is poorly trained and probably shouldn't be carrying a gun is pretty much a given. However, we're talking about a SWAT team here.



If you read Nick's posts, it sounds like he is perfectly aware of what a fire fight is like in real life. I won't belabor the point, but I'm not precisely ignorant of the experience either.

Perhaps my writing is unclear, the exercise relates to ACCURACY. Not the experience of someone shooting at you.

Because a group of people are called SWAT does not mean that they are superhuman, or even well trained.

Again, please see the FBI conclusions and BCJS pubs
 
LOL!!!! Nick W, you have worked with the best marksman? Suppression is a myth? Buddyyyrow!!! Shoot move and communicate! This was not a video game. Any lull in fire is not good until the target is down.
 
Read what was written. AS related to accuracy is the key part here.

If a person finds themself in a situation where they are unable to fire accuratly, they should take a covered position, calm down, regain their composure, and then fire accuratly. There is never any excuse for firing a shot that may not be accurate. All that is doing is endangering lives.


To answer your question; yes, and each experience was different. Ranging from military to LE. I am also one of the people that investigated and debriefed such things.

Although YOUR individual experience may be that YOU as an individual are disciplined enough to respond as trained not everyone is.

For example, this SWAT team.

I'm not a robot. I'm a person who received very good training and then stuck to it when the situation called for it. Had I not done so I would expect my superiors to not defend my actions. People make mistakes. Just because the people who make those mistakes are wearing a uniform doesn't mean they shouldn't be held accountable for their actions. If you're carrying a firearm and have the authority to use that firearm in a public setting you should be held to the highest standard possible when it comes to the use of that weapon.

Unless your individual experiences are universal they have no place in training or debriefing except as atypical anecdotal parables.

As to the need to put 68 rounds into a person I again would suggest the FBI study of the Miami shootout, they will make it available to local departments if asked. I would also refer you to the multiple studies conducted by BCJS as related to police shootings.

That was a different situation in which the individual was firing at the officers involved. Again, I see no mention in this Florida case of the suspect firing at the SWAT team.

By the way, your "honest question" is a logical fallacy called "appeal to authority" in which one attempts to establish the supremacy of one's position via establishing oneself as an authority in a subject thus denigrating another's position....

Actually, my honest question was not in any way an appeal to authority. It was an honest question as I didn't feel you did enough in your first post to establish your ethos. I wanted to make sure I was talking to someone who actually knew what they were talking about based upon experience rather than what they have read in a book.

What you're doing now though is getting dangerously close to what is called "talking down to people" and I usually don't take to kindly to that. :wink:
 
I think I am seeing the disparity here, military versus civilian law enforcement. Nick and King, are you guys looking at this from the basis of your military backgrounds?
 
They should hire you, Nick. I'm not sure how they've done without you, up to this point.

I'm sure they'll do just fine without me. But thanks! :D

LOL!!!! Nick W, you have worked with the best marksman? Suppression is a myth? Buddyyyrow!!! Shoot move and communicate! This was not a video game. Any lull in fire is not good until the target is down.


Yes, I would venture to guess that Recon Marines and Scout Snipers are probably among the best marksmen the military has to offer. Would you disagree with that?

You should never fire without the intention of hitting your target. Using the term suppression fire implies that you are going to simply fire in that general direction with no real intentions of hitting anything. Now, if I am in full scale combat with multiple targets in different, covered positions who may or may not have me outgunned, yadda yadda yadda, then yes, I might want a couple extra rounds going down range. If I have superior numbers, superior weapons and am up against ONE target behind a log with a handgun, I think we can leave the Rambo tactics at home for the day.
 

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