My kind of America

[Kingpatzer]

The data shows typical police shootout distance is 7 yards average and that only 20% of the rounds fired hit the target.

Which to me just goes to prove that the police shouldn't, by and large, be carrying guns. The ability to hit what you're aiming it is merely the start of some form of fire discipline, and a lack of discipline (be it around guns, car chases, or tasers, is one of the biggest reasons that innocent people get killed by cops.

It is actually a fairly significant problem nationwide.

As Nick mentioned, these guys are getting equipped with military grade weaponry, yet aren't even getting moderate levels of training.

I think the local LEO requirement is 4 hours on the firing range every year. With that little training it's a wonder they can find the trigger.

 

[Kingpatzer]

adurso, no they do not train like that in the military thank god. I do not know where they are coming from.

They certainly do, but you have to get out of the large scale warfare groups to see it.

 

[Kingpatzer]

By the way, your "honest question" is a logical fallacy called "appeal to authority" in which one attempts to establish the supremacy of one's position via establishing oneself as an authority in a subject thus denigrating another's position....

Actually, an appeal to authority is not a logical fallacy unless it takes the form that someone claims something is true because of the authority one carries. Merely stating that propositional knowledge is known and that one is an authority in a position to know the veracity of said proposition is not a fallacy.

 

[Kingpatzer]

The article said it was a 10 man swat team, so that is only an avearge of 11 shots fired per man.

Which is 9 per man too many.

No matter how you look at it, the cops involved fired an average of fewer that 10 rounds each.

Ok, let's say 8 round each. That's still 6 rounds each too many.

Against a suspect who was not merely armed and dangerous, but had actually killed one deputy and a police dog, and shot and injured a second deputy, I would say the swat team was fairly restrained. Studies have shown that most officers involved in an exchange of fire will continue to fire until they need to reload.

Again, what those studies are telling you is that those officers have no business carrying a weapon. These guys weren't "fairly restrained." They were fairly unskilled and dangerous -- firing rounds off to who knows where because they weren't hitting their target.

 

[Fish_Whisperer]

Okay... Let me get this straight: You aren't a law enforcement professional, but in your opinion, the officers involved, expended too many rounds, so therefore, your opinion is that law enforcement professionals should not be allowed to carry weapons?

Is this what you're saying?

 

[Nick_W]

Okay... Let me get this straight: You aren't a law enforcement professional, but in your opinion, the officers involved, expended too many rounds, so therefore, your opinion is that law enforcement professionals should not be allowed to carry weapons?

Is this what you're saying?

Dude, seriously, having trained some of them, I will say they really shouldn't be carrying firearms. As we've already discussed, a good number of your average cops are poorly trained at best and downright incompetent and dangerous at worst. I wish there was another solution, but sadly there really isn't. As it stands we're just going to have to keep arming them. One thing that will help, however, is when cops stop protecting the morons among them and the general public stops pretending like just because a guy has a badge, he can do no wrong.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Okay... Let me get this straight: You aren't a law enforcement professional, but in your opinion, the officers involved, expended too many rounds, so therefore, your opinion is that law enforcement professionals should not be allowed to carry weapons?

Is this what you're saying?

Law enforcement should be more restrained than the military in the use of weapons precisely because their mission is not to destroy an enemy but to apprehend a suspect. Were this a military situation in the units I was associated with, someone would be being brought up on charges.

No, I wasn't an LEO. But I am well trained enough to know professional weapon use when I see it. This was not an example of professionalism.

And frankly, I don't want cops incapable of exercising professionalism carrying weapons around me or my family.

 

[Captain Walt]

They certainly do, but you have to get out of the large scale warfare groups to see it.

Kingpatzer, let me ask you a question are you still with the 160th? Do you pilot or are you crew chief or a mechanic? Where you an operator?

Violence of action on the OBJ brah!

RLTW!

 

[tc]

Law enforcement should be more restrained than the military in the use of weapons precisely because their mission is not to destroy an enemy but to apprehend a suspect.

Another mission not often mentioned is to go home alive at the end of your shift, they were threatened by an armed suspect who had already shot two other officers- Do you feel they should have waited for him to get a few more rounds off before they fired?

Were this a military situation in the units I was associated with, someone would be being brought up on charges.

I find that hard to believe, what charge(s) and can you cite any instance where a similar situation has resulted in charges?

No, I wasn't an LEO. But I am well trained enough to know professional weapon use when I see it. This was not an example of professionalism.

You weren't there, neither was I. Absent evidence to the contrary I'm not going to second guess them as you are doing, my assumption is that they did what they felt they needed to do to neutralize the threat. If any evidence to the contrary exists I'm sure the family of the suspect and their lawyer will make sure it comes to the attention of the civil courts.

And frankly, I don't want cops incapable of exercising professionalism carrying weapons around me or my family.

There's always England.

 

[Captain Walt]

The only reason I have stuck with this thred. Is the second guessing of the shooters. The team did a good job they are all coming home to there wives. Eceped for two. I served with the 1st RANGER Btn. I have been there brother. I was not part of large scale units. I have been room to room. Small unit tactics. One man or a team you assault the OBJ with violence of action. You SUPRESS so you can maneuver and gain the advantage. Tell me what!