My kind of America

[Nick_W]

Mandarin Chinese

Oh man, that's a tough one. I'm impressed.

You have no idea what you are talking about. One person can empty a clip of 14 or 17 rounds in a tactical engagement in less than 10 seconds while "front sighting". They don't do bullseye when engaged. Multiply this by however many officers were there and you get the high round counts. This is something most people don't understand when they read these stories..... and you don't stop firing until the target is dead.

Might want to read that story I posted earlier where the perp was hit 7 times out of 14 shots. That is what it took to down him...in your book I suppose the officer should have stopped after hitting him a couple of times and asked if he was ready to say "Uncle".

I usually don't "flame" people but sorry, you are just clueless. Totally... and full of yourself.

And you should stick to not flaming people, because you really suck at it and you just make yourself look like a moron and a jerk.

 

[Nick_W]

Now watch this... and with a revolver no less.

YouTube - Fast Shoot

You found a video of a guy who probably practices for hours and hours a day in order to be able to perform that trick in a controled environment. What, exactly, is your point here?

 

[vshearer]

You found a video of a guy who probably practices for hours and hours a day in order to be able to perform that trick in a controled environment. What, exactly, is your point here?

Well, first of all such a great marksman and you don't know who Jerry Miculek is? Clueless

Now this is just a random pull from a USPSA match, I shoot them too, and I suck. This guy is average but the better shooters can do this in half the time. My point is a lot of lead can go downrange on target in short period of time. Accuracy, Power and Speed.

YouTube - Joe Shooting USPSA 10/18/07 - Oxford, Ohio

And cops tend to be in the "average" category as shooters at these matches. SWAT teams tend to be in the upper C or B class, sometimes A class. But that is no reflection on them as it takes 8000-10000 rounds a month for a couple of years to get there.

 

[vshearer]

Now this is Todd Jarrett, he is pretty good.

YouTube - Hat Cam and Todd Jarrett IPSC USPSA

 

[Nick_W]

Well, first of all such a great marksman and you don't know who Jerry Miculek is? Clueless

Now this is just a random pull from a USPSA match, I shoot them too, and I suck. This guy is average but the better shooters can do this in half the time. My point is a lot of lead can go downrange on target in short period of time. Accuracy, Power and Speed.

YouTube - Joe Shooting USPSA 10/18/07 - Oxford, Ohio

And cops tend to be in the "average" category as shooters at these matches. SWAT teams tend to be in the upper C or B class, sometimes A class. But that is no reflection on them as it takes 8000-10000 rounds a month for a couple of years to get there.

Why do I have to know the name of every guy who's ever fired a gun? I've seen that video before, but I'm really not all that interested in the "sport" of shooting pieces of paper really fast so I don't bother to remember names like that.

Yes, in a controled environment someone who practices this type of shooting can fire a lot of rounds on target. But a firefight isn't exactly the same as a nice controled range now is it? And besides, I go back to my original point. Why fire six rounds into a guy when two will do the trick? Actually, one usually does the job, the second round in the double tap is your insurance.

Plus, you seemed to have missed the part of this thread where two people who have trained officers (myself being one of them) have pointed out that your average cop really isn't that great of a shot. Not their fault really, they don't have the time, but its true.

 

[Kingpatzer]

One person can empty a clip of 14 or 17 rounds in a tactical engagement in less than 10 seconds while "front sighting". They don't do bullseye when engaged. Multiply this by however many officers were there and you get the high round counts. This is something most people don't understand when they read these stories..... and you don't stop firing until the target is dead.

I have no doubt that those are the tactics taught. I have several problems with that as both a citizen and as someone who knows a thing or two about weapon use.

First, cops engage people in communities. Not knowing where the bullet is going is a very very bad thing and leads to bad results. I would rather the bad guy walk away than some little kid catch a stray round in his head because he's got the bad misfortune to be sitting in the wrong place at the wrong time when some gonzo cop empties his clip without a well sighted target.

Second, the cops are not on a military engagement. The idea of massive fire power is misplaced. The role of the police is to apprehend a suspect who is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Their job is not judge, jury and executioner. I have no problem in using lethal force if all other reasonable options are exhausted. But my idea of acceptable lethal force in no way accounts for a hundred or more rounds being fired at a single individual.

Exercise solid command and control, manage the situation, and if you must engage a target, engage a target, not an area.

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

...On a lighter side considering the number of military on this thread my son went today and got his third stripe sewn on his uniform. Senior Airman Joshua E. Lapenta, Airborne Cryptologic Linguist. I am very proud that he chose to serve his country, his family, and his God. Instead of becoming some lowlife too lazy to pull his pants up, put a hat on straight, and wear a shirt that does not fit. God Bless All our men and women who serve and have served. My thanks, respect, and admiration is for you.

Jim,
Congratulations to your son!

AND... by all means... Thanks to him for his service... and thank you for raising someone who felt the need to serve their country!

 

[BHB ScubaTroll]

This is where I should probably point out that it is more expensive to execute someone than it is to put them in prison for life.

BS!

Should I also tell you stories like the one about the little old lady...

No, because it has no bearing on this thread... as you have pointed out in the past for others..

 

[Kingpatzer]

BS!

Actually pretty well established fact.

 

[vshearer]

I have no doubt that those are the tactics taught. I have several problems with that as both a citizen and as someone who knows a thing or two about weapon use.

First, cops engage people in communities. Not knowing where the bullet is going is a very very bad thing and leads to bad results. .

First, I am not a cop. Second, I work very closely with a lot of them. An officer engaged in a firefight *should* instinctively evaluate the background before firing. They rarely try the hero stunt of trying to shoot the badguy while he is holding a baby in front of him, or any of that nonsense. (It does happen occaisionally, we had one reprimanded and put on admin leave recently for taking out a robbery perp who hit the officer with his car during getaway knocking him to the ground, the officer stood up and fired thru the rear window wounding the perp and ending the getaway. But since another perp was sitting in the passenger seat is was rightly deemed a little excessive.) Now back to the original incident here. This guy was in a brush line if I remember correctly, so the only thing in danger of catching a stray round might have been Bambi. Oh horrors! 99% of cops are pretty damn capable with firearms and the mature use thereof. The majority of incidents requiring the use of lethal force take place at a range of less than 7 yards. When such an incident arises the time that an officer has to react is usually measured in fractions of a second. Point and shoot. No time for lovely little range shooting and perfect little double taps. Geez, clueless, totally clueless. Only hope you never have to use your superior firearm capabilities in a real life and death situation.