My Impression of the Back Inflate vs. Jacket Style vs. BP/Wings Debate

[Uncle Pug]

SeaJay once bubbled...
showing me how BP/Wing setups worked and letting me dive an exemplary rig, for a fee?

Too bad you aren't out here in the PNW or I would be glad to accomodate you (without charge of course) since you seem to be earnest.

And I really do wish that I could take you up on your offer for a dive there... but alas that is not to be either.

However I do want to say don't settle for diving a BP/wing without someone to help you set it up and show you how to dive it correctly... sure it can be done... others have and are pleased... but it really seems as though you would benefit from hands on instruction and especially getting to ask your questions personally.

Hang in there and be patient... no doubt there is someone locally that just hasn't picked up your signal yet but would love to help you out if they only knew.

 

[SeaJay]

Yeah, chompin' at the bit here. :bang:

Thanks for the help... And the invite's open if you suddenly find yourself in SC...

=-)

 

[SM Diver]

I am a totally confused newbie. I finally had a break through with my back inflated BC (Aqualung Malibu), but now I hear that the Knighthawk is the way to go in one thread, SeaJay likes the Scubapro, and many like the BP/Wings, of which I have no experience.

So, if there is a Tampa Bay vendor out there with all of this various equipment that can let me try it (and show me the great stability of bp/wings), I'll bring my check book and you'll have a nice sale. Hell, if I don't buy anything I'll give you $100 for your trouble, and we'll burn the gas in my boat.

SeaJay, I compliment you for your review, and being as thorough as you were. Me, I just bought off the rack at my LDS that trained me because I was told "that's the best.":stupid:

 

[Mouth Breather old]

Tampa,

I didn't say that the Knighthawk was the way to go. I said that I liked it. But I would like any BC as long as I dived A LOT in it and got use to it. Saying a Knighthawk/BP/Jacket is the way to go is like me saying that cars with steering wheels on the left side are the way to go. It works for me on US roads because that is how I learned. I'm sure our UK diver friends would say, "Bloody Hell! A proper motorcar must 'ave it's wheel on the right side!

My gut feeling is that the BP/Wings setup (when set up properly) is probably the ultimate. Much like a car with rack and pinion steering and a manual transmission. Simplicity is a good thing.
But there is a place in the world for what some may deride as "transitional gear", "Ebay Fodder". Just as there is a place in the world for automatic transmissions and power steering. These things are great when you are just learning how to drive.

If I continue on my pace of a miniumum of two dive days a month for the next couple of years, I may opt for a BP/Wings setup.

Tampa...like I said in my other post. Don't get overly hung up on hardware...it's the software that matters most.

Getting a new BC won't make you a better diver. DIVING WILL!

 

[SeaJay]

Just a quick touch on that Knighthawk...

Just as a disclaimer, I did not get to dive one... I got to dive the SeaQuest competitor to the Knighthawk, the Black Diamond.

I'm not a fan of back inflates because of the same reasons I mentioned above... I find their tendency to float you horizontally a bit irritating. Not that I can't overcome it, and not that I don't believe that when swimming, I should be horizontal... It's just that I found that for me, a jacket style BC gave me the ability to swim just as horizontal as with a back inflate, but then allowed me to also be in any position I wanted. (i.e.: Sideways on a wall, vertical at the surface, inverted when swimming into a "chimney," etc.) Sure I could also do all of these things with a back inflate, but if I stopped finning and maintained bouyancy motionless, back inflates had the tendency to place me back horizontal.

Now that characteristic I did not like... But one of my buddies who dove a back inflate with me loved that characteristic. I was having fun swimming inverted, at a 45* angle, inspecting a wall at Blue Grotto, and he thought I was an idiot and decended down the wall in a horizontal position, all calm-like. I thought his approach was boring, he thought I was goofing around.

But before I decided that I preferred a jacket style BC, I very much "shopped' back inflate BC's... And that Knighthawk is one great piece of equipment... I liked it's "clip in" ditchable weights better than the SeaQuest's velcro style because they seemed more secure. That said, it's obvious that the SeaQuest's ditchable weight system was simpler and would function better in a panic situation, or for just getting back into the boat. In the shop, both units felt nearly identical.

The Scubapro Knighthawk had a really unique way of "folding" the rear wing when deflated (like when you at depth) that would do a terrific job of streamlining you. A very nice BC indeed!

So I truly believe that your specified equipment: the Scubapro Knighthawk, the Scubapro Classic, and the BP/Wing setups... Well, yeah... Those are some pretty top-of-the-line BC's you're talking about there. I can't wait until I can talk about BP/Wing setups with a little more experience.

...So I don't think anyone's steering you wrong... It sounds more like a configuration choice than really "what's better." So which do you prefer, the Jaguar, the Mercedes, or the BMW?

 

[Scuba446]

SeaJay,
I went thru this entire topic back in May and was going to switch from my Halcyon to a Mares Syncro Tech BC after preliminary testing of the Halcyon wasn't going so well...

The Mares BC looked VERY 'techy' - with pockets, goodie-bags and weight-integrated pockets. Nice. However, it had much too bulk around my torso. Not very streamlined, and while the size M fit me perfect everywhere, the waist cummerbund didn't. There were zippers all over the place!

As far as the BP and wings go, reels and spools go on the rear D-ring. Backup 'scout' lights (2) go on the chest D-rings, and, yes, you would need a pocket on your wetsuit or drysuit for dive tables, etc. That’s the only drawback I found on the BP and wings. Yes, back inflation DOES place you head down in the water - something that I still wonder about in an emergency situation with an unconscious diver being rescued.

However, you’re making the mistake of trying to compare a technical diver with deco bottles or stage bottles and such rigging in comparison vs a recreational diver. Not a fair assessment. Tech diver always has more gear attached!

What you need is to hook up with a DIR diver or shop that specializes in BP's and wings. How someone takes you up on your offer to dive with you and the $200 'reward' to prove you wrong. I found, at least in MY case, the problem was improper setup of my harness, etc.

PS I love my crotch strap - it makes my rig stable, secure and tight. It does not in any way affect my 'balls' - as you say. In fact, I don't even know it's there!

See if you can get some help from some experienced DIR or BP and Wings user.

Good luck!

 

[Zept]

Seajay, you said back at the beginning that you were diving in a 3/2mm wetsuit. Have you done any of your test dives in anything thicker? With a wetsuit that thin, you shouldn't ever have much air in your BC... so you won't have the same experiences as a cold-water diver in a 7mm farmer john and jacket.

Just a thought,


Zept

 

[Zept]

...here's a quote from Diver magazine:

"When it comes to buoyancy control, an inverted plastic carrier bag (choose a strong one) with one arm passed through the handles up to the shoulder works very well. You can easily add exhaled air to the open end, and when it comes to dumping air during an ascent you simply squeeze the bag at the top with your free hand. Try it. It really is simple and inexpensive."

(from Cressi-sub S111 review).

Them Brits, they really like to keep things simple .


Zept

 

[Spectre]

JamesK once bubbled...
(using your BC to bring up stuff more appopriate for a lift bag) is hard to swallow. Do stuff the PADI way all you want.

Even PADI teaches a lift bag is mandatory for recovery of anything over 10 lbs, and anything less than that should be swam up and not compensated for with your BC.

[sorry... got into the thead late ]

 

[Mouth Breather old]

>>>I'm not a fan of back inflates because of the same reasons I mentioned above... I find their tendency to float you horizontally a bit irritating. <<<

I don't find that they have a tendency to float me horizontally...because I have virtually no air in the BC when I'm under. I pretty much float in whatever position I put myself in. Additionally the Knighthawk has two trim pockets on the back that I keep a little bit of weight in. If you look at the position of those two pockets, their center of gravity is very close to where
the center of gravity would be for a BP. Anyway for whatever the reason it seems to work (but I think I could make any system work if I dive dive and dive some more)

One other thing...I remember reading a review a couple of months ago of a bunch of back inflate BC's. One thing that stood out was that certain models (I'm sure this is true of a lot of Jacket BC's as well) had a fairly high positive bouyancy even with NO AIR in the bladder. They filled the bladders with water and some still were very positive. The Knighthawk was one of about 3 rigs that was neutral will a water filled bladder.

>>>That said, it's obvious that the SeaQuest's ditchable weight system was simpler and would function better in a panic situation, or for just getting back into the boat.<<<

1. Safe diving would include panic control and I would hope that I could avoid panic.

2. Even if I did panic, the ditching of buckle style (Knighthawk, DUI, Halcyon ACB) weight pouches is a ONE STEP procedure. Grab the buckles and pull. A lot of shop guys tell you to UNBUCKLE, THEN GRAB THE PULL RINGS, THEN PULL. Too many steps, just pull the buckles!


"Don't get too hung up on Hardware it's the Software that matters most"

Peace