My Impression of the Back Inflate vs. Jacket Style vs. BP/Wings Debate

[roakey]

mddolson said...
In a pinch, I've donated my primary, it was quicker to locate than my octopus

If this isn't a forehead slapping epiphany about how flawed your system is, I don't think any amount of information will sway you.

If you think that removing your regulator and retrieving one bungeed beneath your neck is something to fear, you should have never graduated from your OW class, sorry.

Roak

 

[The Chairman]

Uh Mike,

No need to slap your forehead or turn in your OW card... no need to second guess on why you handed over your primary. Lest others try to make a mountain out of this anthill as well, let me point out what you did NOT say...

He didn't say he couldn't find his octo... some people seemed to have assumed that.

He didn't say that his octo was lost... again, a fallacious assumption seems to have been made.

He DID say that his primary was more convenient (just like those with a bungeed second)... I see no problem here.

He was able to survive whatever the emergency was he encountered. Again, in spite of what others may post it appears that he responded to his training in a timely manner.

I dive both ways... with an AL80, I use a yoke style reg with a short hose and an octo. With my doubles or Steel 120s (H valve) I dive with a long hose and bungeed second. I tend to always donate my primary... no matter which set of regs I am using. I have no issues with those that donate their octo... they are sharing their air, and THAT is what is important. Both systems work, and training is the key point; not placement of the second.

As for a diver not wishing to take his primary out of his mouth... big whoop! I don't like doing "mask off" drills in salt water. This does not make them "less" of a diver. (And before someone goes "off" on the importance of mask off drills... read again what I said)

 

[JamesK]

NetDoc once bubbled...
He didn't say he couldn't find his octo... some people seemed to have assumed that.

He didn't say that his octo was lost... again, a fallacious assumption was made.

He DID say that his primary was more convenient (just like those with a bungeed second)... I see no problem here.

The only two who responded to that were Roakey and myself. Where do you see wither one of us assuming anything? He specifically said, that he could not find his octo quickly enough. That is what Roakey and myself commented on. No where in our posts did we say anything about him losing it. If you notice, I even said that I did not know whether it was flailing behind him, or clipped off, so I would not comment on that. So where are these assumptions?

What we did say is that we see the flaw in his system. He admitted that he could not find his octo quickly enough. If you have a system when you know that you can find one regulator quciker than the other, by your own admission, and find it every time, why would you not use it?

Sure, he survived, as millions do. That does not mean there are better options out there.

 

[The Chairman]

but it is probably how you read it...

You say he said this...

that he could not find his octo quickly enough

He actually said this...

it was quicker to locate than my octopus

He never made an allusion that his octo was out of reach as you did when you said

I am not sure if it was dangling behind you, or if it was clipped off so no comment there

It was probably as simple as his hand was closer to his primary, but we don't know what the situation was, as he said it was a split second decision and no other information was given. Please do not condemn a system by putting words (or actions) in the mouth of another. While you may only see one way to skin a cat, there are many of us who like the cat with it's fur on and intact.

 

[JamesK]

NetDoc once bubbled...
but it is probably how you read it...

Just as it was probably how you read my post. Either way, he admitted that his primary was quicker to get to.

He never made an allusion that his octo was out of reach as you did when you said

I NEVER implied that his octo was out of reach. I even stated that I would not comment on that because I did not know. My statement clearly says just that. I do not understand the misunderstanding here.

It was probably as simple as his hand was closer to his primary, but we don't know what the situation was, as he said it was a split second decision and no other information was given.

Your right, it could have been that simple. It still goes back to the fact that his primary was simpler/quicker to get to. You are now the one making assumptions as to what happened. it could have been any combination of things. Again, that is why I sated I would make NO comment on that.

Please do not condemn a system by putting words (or actions) in the mouth of another.

You mean as you did with me? You put words in my mouth you you said that I assumed his octo was not in reach, when I clearly stated that I did not know either way.

While you may only see one way to skin a cat, there are many of us who like the cat with it's fur on and intact.

Personally, I like a cat with skin, but no fur. The bald kitty in Austin Powers was cute.

 

[divernva]

In a pinch, I've donated my primary, it was quicker to locate than my octopus

The original poster seems to be expressing his translation of DIR thinking. If that's the case the response is: the backup (octo) is beneath my chin, readily available at the tilt of my head, no searching or locating necessary. It's not a shortcut, it's a built in efficiency.

Donating the primary ensures that the distressed diver will get gas from a working reg. If the octo hasn't been breathed, there are possibilities that it won't work or breathing wet. That's the last thing a distressed diver needs.

Yes, you are at risk with the momentary lack of air. Practice makes the transition from primary to backup seamless. Yes, this doesn't ensure that the backup is working. With a lung full of air, you'll be more composed to deal with the situation than the other diver.

 

[Cave Diver]

SeaJay once bubbled...
My point? Don't let the DIR**** tell you that "there's nothing better than a BP/Wings setup." Sure, maybe with twin steel tanks and dry suits, the extra rigidity can be appreciated. But for me, I much prefer the plain ol' Classic, updated with the latest "cool gear."

First off, let me say that I am not DIR, tho I am certainly starting to lean towards a lot of the things they advocate.

My first BC was a jacket style by a prominent manufacturer and I made numerous dives on it. Enough dives to know that I was 'hooked' and wanting to continue to progress towards the more technical side of diving.

Shortly thereafter I had a failure of that BC, which the manufacturer warrantied fully and sent me a brand new replacement. My LDS was willing to give me full credit back for it since I now had a new replacement and I decided to upgrade to a Transpac II as I felt that this would be a system that would 'grow' with me.

My first few dives I HATED it! Everything felt weird and funny, nothing seemed to fit right. No one else around had one either for me to ask questions about and that was long before I ever found ScubaBoard.

I persisted tho, and managed to figure out all the adjustments and placements of how I wanted things and how to make it fit me best. Now the Transpac II fits me perfectly and is practically transparent when I dive. I hardly even know it is there. One thing I did learn, a crotch strap is a MUST with back inflation and if you dont get it fitted right it is the most uncomfortable thing ever invented. But again, once you get it adjusted correctly you hardly know it is there.

I have dove my Transpac II using single tanks in the Carribean, spearfishing in the Gulf of Mexico, on low (no) visibility dives in the local lakes, assisted LDS during pool sessions with new students and I have even used doubles on it for cave diving.

Now that I understand how everythings works with it and what the limitations of it are, I find that I can adapt it to any situation and my bouyancy and trim with it are very good.

You did a good thing by comparing different BC's, but I would encourage you to research a little more before you decide. I have found some BC's to fit better initially, but to not seem so great once yours skills develop. Other BC's may seem like a posterior pain at first, but once you get comfortable with them, they are the best thing since sliced bread.

Just my $.02, but since I bought my Transpac II, two of my buddies have also upgraded to it because of all the benefits they saw it offered me. (plus I let them try mine out to see how they liked it)

Now I am moving to SS Backplate, and I don't have the results of that yet, but I can already tell that I like the stable feeling it has.

Different folks are different 'strokes' I guess.

 

[roakey]

Here’s what mddolson has admitted to, NetDoc, he’s admitted to having multiple choices to make in an emergency situation. In this so-called “pinch” he’s admitted to first taking the time to discover that his octo was going to take too long to get to and then taking even more time to make conscious decision to donate his primary.

This is why I call this approach “horribly flawed” – there’s no other way to categorize a system that makes a person starving for air wait around while the typical PADI trained diver thinks through his options, such as mddolson subjected his buddy to in this “pinch.” Not to mention that the typical result is some substandard, untested, sand filled, dragged-over-reef-all-week regulator is what the air-starved diver is going to receive.

PADI, and all the other mainstream agencies are teaching a sub-standard approach to OOA emergencies. mddolson has been taught this way, and defends this way of handling OOA emergencies because not because it’s better but because “heck that’s the way I was taught, and PADI knows everything!”

PADI, and the other mainstream agencies won’t change to a better system because of “litigation paralysis.” If they change to a better way, they’re afraid that they’ll be sued for teaching the current, substandard method in the past.

Roak

Ps. And there’s only one thing WORSE than the typical PADI method of teaching how to handle OOA emergencies, and that’s to flip back and forth between methods. Hello, NetDoc.

 

[roakey]

divernva once bubbled...
The original poster seems to be expressing his translation of DIR thinking.

DIR thinking is making the decision to donate your primary long before you get in the water. What this poster did was to go ennie-meenie-miney-moe between regulators while his buddy was turning blue.

Making decisions IN an OOA emergency is 180 degres form DIR. You ALWAYS donate from your mouth, no decisions to be made.

Roak

 

[mddolson]

Thanks to Netdoc, I wasn't planning on turning in my C card just yet, and thanks to roakey and JamesK, for a good exchange to both sides of the discussion.

You seemed to have missed my original statement,
"DIR diver sets himself up to donate his primary regulator and
breathe from the secondary if his buddy runs out of air. The
secondary is neck laced for easy access and the primary is on a
longer than normal hose. I believe this to be a good alternate system to the traditional method of donating the octopus"

By lacing the secondary, you preclude a stressed out-of-air diver of self rescue by simply grabbing the octopus from its keeper.
As an experienced diver (30 years, 1000+ dives) I'm in a different state of mind, and readiness when in a rescue situation, than a new diver is.
In a perfect world we would spend countless hours training and drilling so the new divers graduate like veterans with tons of experience and confidence. But that's just not the case.
I still believe that a diver should keep his reg in his mouth, unless absolutely nessessary. Any time you remove your own regulator, you put yourself at risk. I still don't believe this to be a good idea for newbies.

I dive sport diving for the most part, with the occational deep, wreck dive (couple a season), most are non-penetration, but a few are wreck penitration dives.

Just for laughs, here's how I rig for deep or wreck penetration.
Twin 98's with Isolation manifold.

Primary reg on left post of manifold (7 ft) in traditional DIR routing,
Secondary on same regulator routed under my right arm, in mouth piece keeper (sport diver )clipped to my right chest D ring.
The 3rd second stage, on redundant regulator, laced around my neck per DIR, is on right post of isolation manifold, the depth and pressure gauge are switched to this reg also.

The GUE,DIR/WKPP divers are an elite group of specialised well trained, well seasoned tecnical/cave divers. Their methods are nessessary and appropriate for diving in combined close proximaty, overhead , and night conditions.

To repeat my earlier post :
"I do agree with the basic principles of the DIR method." I donot however believe that all the methods and techniques are nessessary for recreational sport diving.

On this topic we will probably agree to disagree.

Mike D