My Impression of the Back Inflate vs. Jacket Style vs. BP/Wings Debate

[mddolson]

Seajay, :blfish:

First let me thankyou and congradulate you on an excellent informative post.

To Quote a NON-DIR diver,
"I believe that as divers, we are all responsible for our own safety. With this responsibility comes the right to not only make our own decisions, but also to decide upon which criteria to base those decisions.
I believe that there is usually more than one way to do something effectively.
I believe that almost everything is a matter of choice."

I had been using a Soft-pack for 15 years, and choose to use a Dive-Rite Transpac & wing. I have recently (2 years ago) switched to an aluminum backplate because I found it more stable, so it's best for me.
I am on the XL-XXL end of the size curve (48" chest), and I personally find that most Jacket style BC's I've tried, squeeze my chest when fully inflated. This is uncomfortable and not acceptable to me.

My reaction to DIR is that these people should not be taken too seriously. The name Doing it Right, suggests that everything else is wrong, a concept that I reject.

However, it is always worth listening to what others have to say. You might just learn something.

Mike D

 

[Uncle Pug]

mddolson once bubbled...
My reaction to DIR is that these people should not be taken too seriously. The name Doing it Right, suggests that everything else is wrong, a concept that I reject.

Does the name Dive-Rite bother you at all?

 

[mddolson]

"Does the name Dive-Rite bother you at all?

Nope not at all, just a simple play on words, Marketing, that's all.
I own OMS, Mares, Viking, Cressi-sub, Suunto, Dive-Rite, Underwater Kinetics.

I buy each peice of equipment based on it's owm merrit, not a specific brand loyalty.

Mike D

 

[Uncle Pug]

mddolson once bubbled...
"Does the name Dive-Rite bother you at all?

Nope not at all, just a simple play on words, Marketing, that's all.

Ahhhhh... I see,
Selective righteous indignation.

But seriously Mike.... why should an acronym bother you?

 

[Mouth Breather old]

Hey Uncle Pug,

Funny you should ask if the name "Dive Rite" bothers anyone...I'm embarrased to admit YES it bothers me. I has the sound of a product sold on late night cable. You know like one of the products that that hyperactive british guy sells, that guy who knows how to get stains out of EVERYTHING? (except for maybe his own teeth)

Just reminds me of boarderline tacky stores like Rite Aid, Stride Rite, Valu Rite, Color Rite etc.

"Grandma's not home Rite now...she wen't to pick up her denture cream at Rite Aid. After that she's gonna swing by Stride Rite to pick up her orthopedic stockings. While she out she'll probably buy some kitty litter for her 20 cats at Valu-Rite. Can she pick up your new canister light that you ordered from Dive Rite on the way back?"


See what I mean Uncle Pug?

 

[mddolson]

Uncle Pug asked:"But seriously Mike.... why should an acronym bother you?"

The name Doing it Right, suggests that everything else is doing it wrong, a concept that I reject. As I stated in my previous post: I believe that there is usually more than one way to do something effectively.

DIR says don't use computers. I disagree. Computers make diving easier, and allow for longer bottom times.

DIR has an all or nothing approach. Since I just disagreed with their computer philosophy, I am not DIR, nor do I want to be.

I do however agree with the basic principles of the DIR method.

DIR says that your most important piece of equipment is your buddy. I agree with this, but this concept is not unique to DIR.

Rule # 1 - Don't Dive With Strokes. This is a good rule. Just as any diver can abort any dive at any time for any reason, any diver can also reject a buddy for any reason.

DIR diver sets himself up to donate his primary regulator and breathe from the secondary if his buddy runs out of air. The secondary is neck laced for easy access and the primary is on a longer than normal hose. I believe this good alternate system to the traditional method of donating the octopus.
Having said that, I am a strong proponent of the keeping your regulator in your mouth. Removing your own regulator places you at risk. For wreck penetration or cave diving a 7-foot hose is required. In this configuration the primary is donated to share air. I believe a side port (Oceanic Omega) 2nd stage to be the right choice here (It has no left or right, or upside down).

DIR preaches a streamlined, hydrodynamic equipment configuration. I agree with this but do not believe that streamlining is the most important factor in every decision.

DIR says that you should only have an SPG on your HP hose and that you should wear other instrumentation on your wrist. Furthermore, the SPG should be on a shorter than normal hose and clipped to your left hip D-ring. The reason is streamlining. I prefer to have both my integrated computer, and compass on a small console and retractor. This keeps them close, but easy to read. I wear a redundant SPG, and depth gauge console clipped to my right hip D ring.

I dove with jet fins for 25 years, they're great fins.
I recently tride and bought a pair of Mares Volos.
My air consumption dropped 20% (They're better)

Mike

 

[divernva]

mddolson,

You've got to take into consideration the types of dives most these folks are doing. Exploration, surveying, deep, penetration... not really recreational. In those situations you want a pretty strict profile for predictable gas management. Though a computer would be nice, its not necessary and adds another component of failure and possible confusion.

So with that said, it seems acceptable to DIR folks to use computers on recreational dives. They still recommend a pretty strict schedule of stops for safety. For a dive within NDL the schedule is roughly: 1 minute between 70-100', 1 minute between 40-70', 1m@40', 1m@30', 1m@20' and 1m@10'. Generally for the sake of my computer I spend a little more time at 20' and 10'. But its ssentially the slow ascent paradigm put to a schedule.

As for the console vs. wrist, DIR teaches a trim, horizontal position at all times. You're also taught never to use your hands to scull because your hands will most likely be doing something else. Holding a light for instance, the sculling results in light signals which confuse your team. Hence they stress the different kicks to fine tune direction in place of hands. With that said, your hands will usually be in front of you. In this position (horizontal, hands in front), the bottom timer / computer will usually be in view. In the case of a console, if you're right hand is guiding a scooter, and your left hand holding the light, how do you grab the console without improperly signalling your team?

If you dive solo without a scooter, who cares? Not me, since I'd adhere loosely to Rule #1, as you've self proclaimed. No offense.

So would you trust your computer on a decompression dive? And if so, what type of schedule would it suggest?

 

[detroit diver]

mddolson once bubbled...
Uncle Pug asked:"But seriously Mike.... why should an acronym bother you?"

The name Doing it Right, suggests that everything else is doing it wrong, a concept that I reject. As I stated in my previous post: I believe that there is usually more than one way to do something effectively.

Actually, what I think it suggests is that there's a better, safer way to dive.

DIR says don't use computers. I disagree. Computers make diving easier, and allow for longer bottom times.

Maybe, but what happens when your computer craps out? DIR doesn't rely on electronics-it's a failure point. I can dive as long as you can without a computer. I can also safely ascend without one-can you do that?

DIR has an all or nothing approach. Since I just disagreed with their computer philosophy, I am not DIR, nor do I want to be.

Yes, DIR is all or nothing. The problems arise when everyone is deciding for themselves what is personally acceptable. It's rigid. That's why I always know EXACTLY what my buddy has for equipment. He's diving what I'm diving. No guessing as to where his backup reg is, where his spg is, and what deco schedule he/she is on. I'm on his, he's on mine.

I do however agree with the basic principles of the DIR method.

Well, there's a start!!!

DIR says that your most important piece of equipment is your buddy. I agree with this, but this concept is not unique to DIR.

You're right. but there is no organization that stresses it more than DIR/GUE. If there were, you wouldn't see all of the "same ocean" buddies on all of the charters.

Rule # 1 - Don't Dive With Strokes. This is a good rule. Just as any diver can abort any dive at any time for any reason, any diver can also reject a buddy for any reason.

DIR diver sets himself up to donate his primary regulator and breathe from the secondary if his buddy runs out of air. The secondary is neck laced for easy access and the primary is on a longer than normal hose. I believe this good alternate system to the traditional method of donating the octopus.
Having said that, I am a strong proponent of the keeping your regulator in your mouth. Removing your own regulator places you at risk.

Why? If you can't take your reg out of your mouth and put it back in (or a backup reg), you shouldn't be diving. What if the person in front of you kicks your reg out of your mouth or knocks your mask off? Do you freak out or just put it back in/on? I guess I don't understand your statement at all.

For wreck penetration or cave diving a 7-foot hose is required. In this configuration the primary is donated to share air. I believe a side port (Oceanic Omega) 2nd stage to be the right choice here (It has no left or right, or upside down).

DIR preaches a streamlined, hydrodynamic equipment configuration. I agree with this but do not believe that streamlining is the most important factor in every decision.

Streamlining is critical. It affects gas usage, but much more importantly, it effects carbon dioxide buildup. And if you do your homework, you'll find out that CO2 is much worse than nitrogen while diving. The harder you work, the more CO2 you build up. Streamlining reduces work and CO2.

DIR says that you should only have an SPG on your HP hose and that you should wear other instrumentation on your wrist. Furthermore, the SPG should be on a shorter than normal hose and clipped to your left hip D-ring. The reason is streamlining. I prefer to have both my integrated computer, and compass on a small console and retractor. This keeps them close, but easy to read. I wear a redundant SPG, and depth gauge console clipped to my right hip D ring.

I dove with jet fins for 25 years, they're great fins.
I recently tride and bought a pair of Mares Volos.
My air consumption dropped 20% (They're better)

Mike

Dive safe,

Jack

 

[mddolson]

Response to your questions: Jack

"I can dive as long as you can without a computer. I can also safely ascend without one-can you do that?"

YES, I can. I carry tables and a watch with me as well as depth and pressure guage on every dive. As a computer user I know, I need to be prepared to switch to tables at any time.
Dive computers are a tool, not the be all, end all.
I do not use my computer for decompression diving,
I put it in gauge mode and use Abyss Decompression software.

"Yes, DIR is all or nothing.It's rigid.
That's why I always know EXACTLY what my buddy has for equipment. He's diving what I'm diving."

So do I, know exactly where my partner's gear is also, while his gear is similar to mine, we are not identical, but we know each other.

"..what deco schedule he/she is on. I'm on his, he's on mine. "
I certanly hope so. When we do decompression diviing, which is the exception, we use the same software, plan and profile.
When sport diving we do the same.

"Why? If you can't take your reg out of your mouth and put it
back in (or a backup reg), you shouldn't be diving. What if the
person in front of you kicks your reg out of your mouth or knocks
your mask off? Do you freak out or just put it back in/on? I
guess I don't understand your statement at all."

My statment is based on pure logistics, and no I don't freak if my mask or regulator get knocked off/out. However, every time a diver removes his regulator from his mouth he at risk of injesting water. If the diver keeps his regulator in his mouth, only one diver is at risk, not two. (In a pinch, I've donated my primary, it was quicker to locate than my octopus). It was my decision at that momment, as I said , I do believe that there is usually more than one way to do something effectively.

"Streamlining is critical. ................. Streamlining reduces work and CO2."
I agree streamlining reduces work and CO2 build up. I guess I question how much is critical, I don't belive my Cobra console, on a retractor, laying close to my chest or clipped at the waist, presents a critical amount of drag.

"Dive safe,"

If I can't dive save, I don't dive.
30 years, 1000+ dives and still diving.

Mike

 

[JamesK]

mddolson once bubbled...
(In a pinch, I've donated my primary, it was quicker to locate than my octopus

That is where I see the flaw in your system. You could not locate your Octo quickly enough. Now you have handed off your primary, and are searching for your octo so you can breathe. (I am not sure if it was dangling behind you, or if it was clipped off so no comment there) In the DIR system, which I dive both O/W and cave, you ALWAYS know where both your primary and your back up reg are. Your primary, which is known for a fact to be working, is in your mouth and is being handed off to your buddy. Your backup is secure under your neck, and while you are handing your primary, you are bending your head down to reach your backup. Simple.