My Impression of the Back Inflate vs. Jacket Style vs. BP/Wings Debate

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Hello, I am SeaJay's SO dive buddy. I am very much a "newbie" and have been reading almost everything here on the boards (and everywhere I can) to learn as much as I possibly can. (My dive instructor called me the most excessive over-studious diver ever.) I do a lot of research to find what is best for me in pretty much everything I do including my new found scuba hobby which I love. Please know that SeaJay and I do a lot of investigating and are testing equipment to find out what will help us to have the best most amazing experience diving. Your experiences help us and other like us to do more thorough research and enjoy this sport to the fullest. Isn't that what it is all about? Now, obviously, SJ and I are different people so we have similar and different experiences with gear, which is the case here. Everyone has similar and very different experiences with like and unlike gear. I find it very helpful when people elaborate on their likes and dislikes of gear so I can test this information when I try out equipment to see if I experience the same. My point is, we are not accustom to using something just because someone says this is the best. We want to know what makes it the best and will it be the best choice for us. Thanks to all that put in constructive information here and remember the intent and purpose of this thread originally was to post information that we found to be true in our research and experiences - or SeaJay found.... Buoyancy is a very important issue that is why all here take it seriously. Functionality and fit for the individual diver is precedent and that is why we are taking the time to check this all out, while at the same time continually educating ourselves. Please keep the information coming but in a manner that is useful and not ugly. There is much for us to learn from you and possibly we may offer something of benefit to another. Just because it works for you and you think it is best does not mean it is the best for everyone. Perfect examples are the posts at hand and the CC post on the UW photographer. SeaJay and I are always looking to set up a dive and if you are interested in sharing your knowledge in a dive situation with us that would be great. It would give us the opportunity to learn more and enjoy a sport that we all seem to love. R :)
 
Heya, buddy! Great to see you here on the board, gorgeous... :D

Thanks to Wendy (DIR expert) for talking with me so long tonight and patiently fielding my questions... And thank you for the tip on Extreme Exposure... I'm looking at getting down to Florida this weekend.

Okay, guys... I'm givin' BP's another shot. I'm not sure that I gave them a fair shake. All I can say is, "I'll try them again, this time a different rig with someone experienced to set it up for me."

My plan is to dive Ginnie Springs this weekend, and do a demo dive with Extreme Exposure, the dive shop in High Springs (hope I've got that right.) Apparently, they are both a Scubapro (my favored jacket style BC) and a Halcyon dealer. My hope is that these guys will be able to set both me and RavenC up with Scubapro Classics, then good BP/Wing setups for comparison. I will post impressions again after this weekend. I'm sure she'll have a lot to say about them too. Her favored BC so far I think would probably be the SeaQuest Diva, although she's so tiny that she's not been able to get the right fit quite yet. She has yet to try a back inflate or a BP. (Seems that neither are really appealing to her either, but it looks like she's willing to look at them.) She's mentioned wanting to also try some back inflates by SeaQuest and an x-small version of the Scubapro Classic.

I can't promise that I'm completely objective on this at this point... I truly WANT the BP/Wing setup to work better... It's totally customizable, and I can set it up individually and correctly for each individual dive. Worn/broken parts are easy to replace, and the whole rig's cheaper to begin with. However, thus far, I've liked the Scubapro Classic best, mainly because of it's funtionality and ability to be totally unbiased about my position at depth. In it, I've found that I can choose to be and stay horizontal, vertical, inverted, whatever. I also found, surprisingly, that it laid so flat against my body that it was the most streamlined (despite people telling me this isn't so). By comparison, I found the "wings" to be messy *back there.* Sure, the front seemed streamlined, but that wasn't the overall picture.

But so many of you really experienced divers say the same thing... So there's simply got to be something that I didn't do right... So I'm making this trip.

The dive shop apparently does not have a pool... So I'm not sure where we are going to test the equipment. But since I'm making the trip, I might as well dive Ginnie... :D

I do hope that Extreme Exposure can accomodate us. We're definitely buying BCD's soon... Two of them...

So if anyone's got "connections" there at that dive shop, please "hook us up." I'll call tomorrow to schedule (Tuesday, 8/6/2002.)

Anyone want to get together? I'd love to check out some different rigs and "touch base" with other divers, DIR or not!

Gimme a shout at SeaJay@BMWDrivers.org
 
I have just spent my evening reading this thread (What a sad life I live). With all of the criticisms posted about jacket BC's by Metridium et. al. and BP/Wings by SeaJay et. al. I have come to the conclusion that NEITHER is safe and you're both going to die!

I can see it now...Metridium took up SeaJay's offer to go diving together primarily because of SeaJay's offer to provide the air (way to go big spender!). Of course the trip had to be postponed once because SeaJay went to Florida by mistake because he thought Medtridium was a Florida Caver! Once they got together they almost aborted the dive before they even got wet, because Metridium, took a peek at SeaJay's "Pee Valve" and noticed he had a different kind of "C-Card"! Metridium being a **** and everything was about to call off the dive.

This took a lot of explaining on the part of SeaJay, who went on about the thorough research and 5000 word essay he had written about the benefits of being circumcised. This of course upset the rest of the divers in the group who criticized SeaJay for trying to come off like an expert on the entire "circumcised vs not-circumcised" issue when he only had used his equipment 17 times in his life, and 4 of those times were "without a buddy" :wink:, when the cable company accidentally unscrambled the "Playboy Channel" for a weekend).

Anyway, when they finally did go diving everything was copasetic. Mainly because the regulators in their mouths kept them from arguing under water. They did however develop life threatening "finger cramps" from trying to use hand signals to convey their likes and dislikes about each others rigs.:argue:

During the dive, SeaJay found a 20lb. anchor and he decided to bring it to the surface by clipping it the D Ring number 22 on his Jacket BC. During the accent...the D Ring failed and the 50lb lift, fully inflated, Jacket BC, sent SeaJay to the surface like a submarine launched nuclear missile. His velocity was such, that he breached the surface of the water by about 4 feet! Fortunately for him, because that was just enough to fly over the top of the speeding ski boat that was heading his direction. As he fell back to the surface, SeaJay calculated that he would have to hold open all three off his dump valves in order to sink fast enough to avoid being hit by the jet skiers that were chasing the boat and jumping it's wake.

Metridium was hovering in a perfect, BP facilitated, horizontal positon near the bottom, and as such was unable to look up and see what was happening. His mask was also badly fogged because he had worked himself up into a lather while trying to flame SeaJay by spelling out criticisms on the sandy ocean floor. Unbeknownst to Metridium, both the anchor and SeaJay were hurdling rapidly toward him. The anchor struck Metridium on the leg and broke the distal aspect of his tibia. This angered Metridium so much he pulled out his knife and attempted to stab SeaJay who was now stuck to the bottom like a flounder. Alas the knife had a blunt tip and couldn't penetrate the Jacket BC that protected SeaJay like a suit of armor. Metridium ended up using the serrated edge of the knife to cut through the regulator hoses on SeaJay's rig. SeaJay drowns while trying to breath the remaining air left in his BC bladder.

Metridium tries in vain to "swim up" the double steel 105's, SS Backplate, and canister light, with his remaining good leg. He has no air bladder to fill, because he ditched it in an attempt to become more streamlined. He uses his last breath to turn over, face up, toward the surface. His last thought is that he wants the recovery divers to see how clean and unencumbered he looks with only shoulder and crotch straps showing. He can't wait for the death that will surely come four hours later when he finally runs out of air. So he decides to "Do It Right" by wrapping the 7 foot LP hose connected to his primary, around his neck five or six times and strangles himself in a perfect horizontal position at the the bottom of the ocean. ;-)

Until I read the preceding thread, I had foolishly believed that diving was a safe sport regardless of what kind of gear we used. (As long as that gear had sufficient redundancy and reliability)

I used to ride Harley's. I used to ride sport bikes. I used to get all caught up in the "Which is Better" debate. Now I ride "street fighter" style bikes like the Triumph Speed Triple, Ducati Monster, Yamaha V-Max and realize it's not about WHAT you ride...it's about IF you ride! I just love seeing riders of all kinds on the road.

By the way, I dive a Scubapro Knighthawk and like the way it blends a few of the features I liked from the SP Classic Plus (ditchable non-velcro weights and super comfortable straps and cumberbund when walking a long way to the beach) with the features from the Halcyon BP/Wings that I tried and also really liked (Back inflate air bladder fits very tight around the single tank and front of rig is just shoulder straps and cumberbund). I am a better diver than my friends who use BP's or Jacket style BC's.....but only if I have more dive experience than them. My friends who dive with BP's or Jacket's that have more experience than me, swim circles around me.

If you want to become a good diver...dive and then dive some more. Don't get so hung up on the minutae of hardware choices that you forget that it is your software that really matters most!

Let me just preempt anyone that'g going to write back about what a tragic mistake I have made with my BC and that I'm flirting with death, by saying in the language of today, "Whatever Dude, It's all good!"

=-)
 
You have an extremely over active imagination.


SeaJay,

Good luck with the folks at Extreme Exposure. They are all super nice people. However, the store is a store that is set up for DIR divers. This will be great for you in the fact that you will have some of the most experienced divers in the world, and the ones who started the whole DIR movement, helping you along the way. Let us know what comes of it, and good luck.
 
Man, I've never laughed so hard in my life! Well, okay, once or twice before, but maaaaannn... That was hilarious!



We're all going to die! (eventually)

I have just spent my evening reading this thread (What a sad life I live).



Too true, good point about the dying thing... Hopefully, not today! :D

Hey, man... You think YOUR life is sad? I was the one who wrote the stupid thing! In all fairness, though, this thread's been a blast... And the humor in your post made it all worthwhile, not to mention the fact that getting other's opinions on this whole deal has brought me another good excuse for a dive, and some great interaction from educated people about my favorite topic. When I can't dive, at least I can come here and talk about diving!



I can see it now...Metridium took up Sea Jay's offer to go diving together primarily because of Sea Jay's offer to provide the air (way to go big spender!).



Hahahaaaa!!! Yeah, I know... But to me, that's good enough reason to dive. Free air? I'm there. Free equipment? I'm there. Heck, I'd dive for a 10% discount on some batteries for my Ikelight. :D

Still, you've got a point... Let me up the ante... Anyone who wants to go dive the Betsy Ross (105 ft. depth, 15 miles offshore, 430' sunken Liberty ship, 100 foot vis), I'll throw in not only free air, but a free boat ride too! If you've got your own gear and you can get here, this dive won't cost you a dime. That's how bad I'm jonesin' for some experienced dive buddies!



Of course the trip had to be postponed once because Sea Jay went to Florida by mistake because he thought Medtridium was a Florida Caver! Once they got together they almost aborted the dive before they even got wet, because Metridium, took a peek at Sea Jay's "Pee Valve" and noticed he was ! Metridium being a **** and everything was about to call off the dive.

This took a lot of explaining on the part of Sea Jay, who went on about the thorough research and 5000 word essay he had written about the benefits of being circumcised.



My sides hurt from laughing so hard!

Please, Mr. Moderator, don't "edit" this post... That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time!



This of course upset the rest of the divers in the group who criticized Sea Jay for trying to come off like an expert on the entire "circumcised vs not-circumcised" issue when he only had used his equipment 17 times in his life (4 of those times solo, when the cable company accidentally unscrambled the "Playboy Channel" for a weekend).



I had to stop to go wipe the tears from my eyes I was laughing so hard!



Anyway, when they finally did go diving everything was cool. Mainly because the regulators in their mouths kept them from arguing under water. They did however develop life threatening "finger cramps" from trying to use hand signals to convey their likes and dislikes about each others rigs.

During the dive, Sea Jay found a 20lb. anchor and he decided to bring it to the surface by clipping it the D Ring number 22 on his Jacket BC. During the accent...the D Ring failed and the 50lb lift, fully inflated, Jacket BC, sent Sea Jay to the surface like a submarine launched nuclear missile, with such velocity he cleared the surface of the water by about 4 feet! Fortunately for him because that was just enough to fly over the top of the speeding water ski boat that was heading his direction. As he fell back to the surface, Sea Jay calculated that he would have to hold open all three off his dump valves in order to sink fast enough to avoid being hit by the jet skiers that were chasing the boat and jumping it's wake.

Metridium tries in vain to "swim up" the double steel 105's, SS Backplate, and canister light, with his remaining good leg. He has no air bladder to fill, because he ditched it in an attempt to become more streamlined.



Dude, I'm hangin' with you... Somehow, I have a feeling that no matter what happened, you'd make us all laugh and it'd all seem better.



He uses his last breath to turn over, face up, toward the surface. His last thought is that he wants the recovery divers to see how clean and unencumbered his chest looks with only shoulder and crotch straps showing.

He can't wait for the death that will surely come four hours later when he runs out of air. So he decides to "Do It Right" by wrapping the 7 foot LP hose connected to his primary, around his neck five or six times and strangles himself in a perfect horizontal position at the the bottom of the ocean. ;-)



ROFLMAO!!!

Okay, breathe. Breathe. Must remember to breathe. :D



Until I read the preceding thread, I had foolishly believed that diving was a safe sport regardless of what kind of gear we used. (As long as that gear had sufficient redundancy and reliability)

I used to ride Harley's. I used to ride sport bikes. I used to get all caught up in the "Which is Better" debate. Now I ride "street fighter" style bikes like the Triumph Speed Triple, Ducati Monster, Yamaha V-Max and realize it's not about WHAT you ride...it's about IF you ride! I just love seeing riders of all kinds on the road.



Yay! Truer words were never spoken. I know it's a debate for another time on another board, but you're right. The owner of one of the best dive shops in Savannah rides a hog... And he and I tease each other all the time. It's great that we can both mess around like that... And there's really a strong mutual respect that is there not only because we both ride, but because we both dive, too. 'Course, it is funny when he says to me, "You look like a monkey humping a football," and I ask him, "Do you know the difference between a Harley and a Hoover? The placement of the dirtbag." We both smile and tease and it's great. I don't remember any Italian bike jokes, but when I do, I'm sending them to you. Hey, man... You aren't exempt either! "Ducatis are like Italian Harleys" and all of that. :D

Likewise, I completely agree with you on your point about this sport being statistically very safe, no matter what kind of gear is used.



By the way, I dive a Scubapro Knighthawk and love the way it blends a few of the features I liked from the SP Classic Plus (ditchable non-velcro weights and super comfortable straps and cumberbund when walking a long way to the beach) with the features from the Halcyon BP/Wings that I tried and also really liked (Back inflate air bladder fits very tight around the single tank and front of rig is just shoulder straps and cumberbund).



Noooooo! You're going to die! (Just kidding!)



I am a better diver than my friends who use BP's or Jacket style BC's.....but only if I have more dive experience than them. My friends who dive with BP's or Jacket's that have more experience than me, swim circles around me.

If you want to become a good diver...dive and then dive some more. Don't get so hung up on the minutae of hardware choices that you forget that it is your software that really matters most!



Great point! You know, the funniest thing is that every time I get in the water I remind myself of that... I think, "GEAR is a pain in the neck... Diving with NOTHING would be my best solution, but I can't do that... So I should make it a point to dive with only what I need, and no more... Less is more... Man, I gotta stop spending money on gear and start spending money on dives..." And almost always, no matter what gear I use, I think, "This is a little better (or a little worse) than the last piece of gear I had, but who cares? It doesn't make that much difference. Wow, look at the size of that grouper! Wow, look at the way those rays of light dance across the bow of that wreck... Wow, that's one deep hole... Wow, did you feel that thermocline? Man, this is fun..."



"Whatever Dude, It's all good!"



Bravo!
 
You guys won't believe this...

Okay, so we've written six or seven pages' worth of opinons, tests, impressions, arguments, insults, apologies, and equipment reviews. I've got 17 dives under my belt, a brand new buddy, and two peoples' gear to buy. We love the sport, and want to do this right... We're both curious, studious, willing to take the time, and willing to test everything before spending the thousands of dollars buying our new gear.

...So I go and test the equipment... And find that I like what a lot of people like... But am told that "serious," or "technical" or "the right" way is do use this certain kind of equipment... The kind I didn't have much luck with. (Okay, not everyone told us that, but there's enough to make the point.)

So I resolve to giving this another shot... And promptly take the time off and count my pennies and do all that it takes to clear the weekend and drive hundreds of miles away to really find out which route is "right" for me... For "us." My buddy and I are at a crossroad... Do we do this the "mainstream" way, or do we do this the "right" way? Depends on a bunch of things, apparently, so it's going to have to be a choice we make on a very personal and individual basis.

So what happens? I call Extreme Exposure, a hotbed for DIR diving and a dealer for the kind of equipment that we want... The "good stuff," no matter which route we choose. I tell the very friendly and professional guy who answers the phone that I represent two divers, and we are new and looking to buy all of our gear... But want to explore what kind of gear that's going to be, exactly. Can he set up with us some time so that he can help us to understand DIR? Can he set up some time with us so that he can show us some of this equipment and the equipment configuration? Most of all, can he set us up so that we can try some of this equipment, particularly a proper BP/Wing setup, and compare it to the mainstream stuff?

His answer: Sure... You are welcome to come by and ask us anything you'd like, but here's some websites where you can see all of this information...

"Very helpful," I said. "Thanks, but I've seen a lot of that already, and I'm familiar."

"Buy the book," he said.

Don't get me wrong... He was polite and professional. I feel better off for talking to him, and he pointed me in a direction where I could find more information.

But to quote the GUE website, "[You] can read all about serving a tennis ball to an opponent all day long, and that'll make you educated. But until you serve a few thousand balls, you aren't going to be an expert." Those are THEIR WORDS. Can you see what I mean when I tell people that, "My experience is that these guys (DIR) preach an awesome game, and I love their ideals, yet I don't see them practicing what they preach?"

Looks like they aren't going to help me this weekend. Looks like they want me to take the class, buy the book, and read for 12 hours before they even show me what a BP/Wings setup is. By the way, it's not "scuba gear," or even "gear" to them... It's a "life support system" and is "not a toy." Well, duh... That's why I got certified in the first place. But how am I supposed to get educated as to whether or not I even want to go the BP/Wing, long hose, holistic dive route until I check it out for myself?

"Here's a website address" was his answer.

Know what? I think that RavenC and I are going diving this weekend... And we'll do it by using our heads and our training and the best gear we can equip ourselves with. And I'm sure we'll have a blast. Too bad we won't be DIR or even BP/Wing equipped... Not that we wouldn't like to be... It just seems that we've been stonewalled.

The closest dive shop able to contend with a BP/Wing setup, not even considering the whole DIR dive style, is five hours away. I'll make the trip and bring my money and and open mind ready for learning... But apparently that's not enough.

How frustrating. ;-0
 
I think that RavenC and I are going to grab our dive instructor buddy and go do a dive at the Betsy Ross.

Again, like I've said before, it's a dive in 105 fsw, 430' Liberty ship in 100' vis. Almost never sees divers. Lots of everything to see. 15 miles off the coast of SC.

Anyone who's got a BP/Wing setup to let me try (and set it up properly) can come for free. I'll supply air and the charter.

That's right... Free dive. All you've gotta do is get here and bring a BP/Wing setup.

Someone please help. :(
 
This BP/Wings vs. Jacket BC topic seems to have run it's course (for now). I'd like to suggest a few topics for another thread that might be less inflammatory and less likely to stir up such passion.

How 'bout a thread on "Carnivorous diets vs. Vegetarian diets" (animal haters vs. plant haters). Riding a Harley vs. Hitchhiking (or is that the same thing?)

Of course the least controversial debate of the day would be; "Row vs. Wade" (Boat Diving vs. Beach Diving)

Mouth Breather
 
SeaJay,
Have you talked to Wendy or William A. They dive in that area and may be able (willing) to help or know someone. I would think that someone in the area would rent a kit.

Or...

Call a GUE or other instructor who dives this way and offer him/her some money to do a dive with you.

Just a suggestion
 
Yeah, I talked to Wendy in the first place... She's the one who pointed me to Extreme Exposure.

I just tried another shop (boy, was the kid I talked to clueless) and they had no idea where I could rent such a thing as a BP/Wing. Of course, he did tell me that he had the best price on them, and that when I decided to buy...

Sheesh. I'll keep that in mind, kid. Thanks for nothin' in the meantime.

He did, however, then tell me that he thought Extreme Exposure rented Bp/Wings. Hunh? :confused:

So I called Extreme Exposure back... And yes, they rent them. :banging: For a shining moment, it seemed like my problems would be solved. But then he added, "I think, though, that there's a class this weekend and they're all taken. I'll call you tomorrow when I know for sure." Doh. :( My bet is that he won't call me, and I'll be getting closer to the weekend, and by the time I say "screw it" to finding a BP/Wings, it'll be too late to charter a boat locally to dive the Betsy Ross this weekend. Grrrrr... See, if I can't find a BP/Wing, then I might as well save the traveling money and go and dive a more fun dive too... But I'm willing to travel for the BP/Wing.

So there is some hope here, but not much... And once I have a BP/Wing rented, there's still the problem that I won't have an experienced dive buddy to set everything up properly. That only puts me in the same boat as I was last week!

Okay, let's see about another suggestion... Who knows someone (dive instructor) who'd be interested in showing me how BP/Wing setups worked and letting me dive an exemplary rig, for a fee?

Thanks in advance...
 
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