My descent into and out of madness: GUE Fundamentals, or Instruction vs Evaluation

[Compressor]

Many of us have had poor experiences with instructors. Like all professions, there are some good instructors and some so so ones in each agency. QI should pick this up and act on it if it becomes repetitive.

 

[Compressor]

OK. This is interesting... A mod seems to have stepped in and changed things and then asked why I hadn't asked for help, and then outlined their view of how this should have worked. Mistakes were made, many on my side. So I'm taking a deep breath.

My biggest point in writing this is that I'm trying to become more humble in my internal thinking, and to better understand where pride and fear have stopped me from making progress. Maybe others might see themselves in it, maybe not. But I can certainly try to apply those lessons in other areas of my life -- like working with ScubaBoard!

There is a *real* difference with this post. In this post, unlike literally every other post I've ever written, I was *not* interested in creating or participating in debate. This is too personal and sensitive. I wanted to encourage others who might feel the same way I did to think about it. But I was not looking for some sort of "solution" to my own situation. In fact, it was that exact evaluate-first-and-only mindset that I was railing against -- accurate or not, such behavior wasn't going to be successful in making me actually *feel* better, and at this point, I'm feeling much more than thinking.

(Don't any of you have spouses? Don't they ever tell you a problem and then remind you that they're not looking for advice, they're simply venting? Or do they just get mad at you and you don't know why? That might be it....... I know I do it enough to *my* spouse -- she's aware enough to remind me of this when it happens.)

In the end, I have come to the conclusion that ScubaBoard is not the proper venue for this. It seems that it is impossible to post something *without* it becoming a debate. And I'm not asking for debate. And the fault is mine: I'm asking round pegs to fit into my square hole. I *could* simply turn this into a impersonal mechanical report of facts and events, but I'm not interested in writing that.

I was told not to tell people when you're leaving -- most don't care, and the only people who will react will react negatively or simply be emboldened. I understand that. But I also don't think it's fair to simply abandon something you've created unfinished. I don't plan on leaving this unfinished, but I don't plan on completing it here.

My wife has asked me to expand on what I've written here in her blog related to homeschool and lifelong learning. She has found that the paralysis and fear that I've inflicted on myself is fairly common when others approach her about the idea of homeschooling and seeing someone else struggle with this would be valuable for her -- someone who is involved with homeschooling already, no less, but has their *own* area of fear and paralysis. So that is what I'm going to do.

There's one big advantage to that: exactly *zero* people will have heard of GUE, and won't bring along their axes to grind!

I *will* post a link when that gets going. And you're welcome to participate there -- there are comments enabled. I *will* keep things sharply on-topic there, and the topic will be primarily learning, not SCUBA. And you're welcome to participate *here*. I very likely won't reply much here, but there might be some. But please: do your thing here.

It probably won't be posted until after the class. I'm going to need to re-write the introduction, and I may not finish before. But I will write things up as I go along, and it will get up.

So I don't really think I'm taking my ball and going home; I'm more taking my tennis ball off the basketball court, where it should have never been. If you want to play tennis, come along!

I'm still figuring this out as I go along. I'm sorry for the disruption. I appreciate your patience.

You should express yourself freely. Once you start your class, I would hesitate to post since you will need all the free time in the day you'll get to rest and get ready for the next day. The class is hard for both you and the instructor. Go in with an open mind and willing to learn. IMO, you will get more out of it after the class is over and you continue to dive, applying the prininples learned in class. As I've said before, I wish you the best in the class.

 

[The Chairman]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

As the "mod" who did the off-topic clean-up, I have a few observations.

Great thought was put into separating valid discussion from what was an attempt at a hijack. We have no venue at this point that allows a one-way "venting" without subsequent commentary, but various options are being considered.

There has been no debate in this thread: simply discussion. It takes a desire to improve and a lot of humility to accept feedback. especially when it does not agree with your current point of view (POV). Much of the value of SB lies in the clash of ideas and the challenge to express your views clearly. Indeed, posting anything on the internet is an invitation for others to reflect and discuss your observations. Obviously, if you don't want this kind of cogent feedback, then a blog is certain to produce a mostly feelgood reaction. At least you get to censor anything you disagree with in the name of being "on topic".

If anyone wishes to discuss moderation and/or adding a simple blog feature here on SB, then please take it to site support. I am still watching this thread and will move or delete OT posts to keep it on topic.

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[wetb4igetinthewater]

I thought I’d share this article by Guy Shockey (he’s an awesome guy and represents GUE well): Reflections on Twenty Years of Excellence: Holding The Line

 

[stuartv]

in those classes, I was largely being evaluated, not instructed. If I was already above the minimum requirements, there was no requirement to teach me, and so I wasn't taught anything.

The perfect example of that was my Peak Performance Buoyancy certification. There was no pre-dive material, no pre-dive instruction, and no post-dive review. We did a dive, I was told I passed, and if I paid my money I'd get the card. So basically I paid $120 or whatever to have a dive buddy on that dive. Actually no, I paid $120 for someone to pass judgement on me. I didn't want judgement: I wanted improvement! But because I was above the minimum standard, I was given no instruction.

All that you wrote resonated with me. But, I have mixed feelings about this part.

As someone who has taken the same class and finished with the same dissatisfaction, I can totally relate.

But, on the other hand, it has occurred to me to wonder where you draw the line.

If you sign up for Driver's Ed and it turns out that you already know how to drive, do you really think the instructor should teach you how to drive a race car on a track? If you sign up for an Algebra class and it turns out you already know algebra (or it comes so easily that you are done in 1/4 of the time), do you expect the instructor to go ahead and start teaching you trigonometry?

I think there are times where we would be completely valid in thinking that an instructor should have put more effort into the class. But, I think there are also times we have to acknowledge that we may have signed up for a class for which we, as divers, have already exceeded the goals of the class, and so we should not fault the instructor if we didn't learn anything.

Maybe the relevant conclusion to come to is that there will always be a range of products in any market. Some products are only intended to meet the most basic requirements of the consumer. Some meet the same requirements and exceed them by a large margin. We shouldn't be upset that the low end products exist. But, we should perhaps make some effort to be educated and help educate others regarding evaluating the products so that everyone has reasonable expectations about what they're getting when they choose one product over another. You may want a Mercedes AMG, but you shouldn't be bothered that the Honda Civic exists. You just need to make sure that you don't buy a Civic expecting to get AMG performance. I think we both have had a level of naivety at one point that led us to take a Buoyancy class, wanting an AMG, and disappointed to drive away in a Civic.

We probably also should recognize that scuba is a relatively small market. Thus, the niche within that market that demands the higher-end products is REALLY small. Therefore, there will likely never exist a large selection of the higher-end products to choose from. Which especially sucks for consumers that live in the desert. Amazon does not deliver scuba training.... Yet...

 

[tmassey]

But, on the other hand, it has occurred to me to wonder where you draw the line.

If you sign up for Driver's Ed and it turns out that you already know how to drive, do you really think the instructor should teach you how to drive a race car on a track? If you sign up for an Algebra class and it turns out you already know algebra (or it comes so easily that you are done in 1/4 of the time), do you expect the instructor to go ahead and start teaching you trigonometry?

I think there are times where we would be completely valid in thinking that an instructor should have put more effort into the class. But, I think there are also times we have to acknowledge that we may have signed up for a class for which we, as divers, have already exceeded the goals of the class, and so we should not fault the instructor if we didn't learn anything.

Thank you very much for your discussion. I very much appreciate your perspective.

Part of the 9/10th of the material I cut out was an analogy to a drivers' *test*. In that case, it's *clear* the examiner would not be teaching anything. Their role is purely examination. To me, it seems that most of the instructors I've had seemed to treat their job more as an examiner, even though they call themselves an instructor.

And I then went on to think about the points that you made above. It is clear there is a line where you've simply taken the wrong class. Of course, maybe an instructor should be able to help you to determine that before selling you the class? I had two different instructors do that recently when I wanted the SDI Solo card. 'As a cave diver, you're way past that class. I can't teach you anything in that framework.' But in that case, I needed the tiny piece of plastic, so I took the class. Learned nothing at *all* -- we just had a really fun dive! But proper expectations were set from the beginning.

But once you're in the class -- certainly when there are other people in the class -- the options may be much more limited. With *any* group situation, you can only go as fast as the (reasonably) slowest student. (My Advanced class comes to mind. There was one student that I would not say was unqualified to take AOW, but he was behind the curve of the rest of us. We simply could only do so much. C'est la vie.)

But what about a 1-on-1 situation, such as my Peak Performance Buoyancy class? It's likely the instructor evaluated my skills properly to determine that I exceeded the minimum expectations. I'm not accusing him of malfeasance. What I wonder is, was there nothing of value that he could have taught me? There was no doubt that at that time he was a much more experienced and capable diver than I. Certainly he could have done something to provide *some* value to me during the class?

And mea culpa: I *stated* that cost, availability, time and distance were a big part of why I was buying Hondas from the dealer up the street. And I guess that Honda Civic salesmen are not going out of their way to remind you that the AMG exists, and you're really tall, and maybe you need something bigger than the Civic...

I guess that's the crux of the matter for me. As a small business person, my *minimum* expectation is that I provide *some* value for my client. If I do not think that I will provide value that I consider to be a reasonable minimum, I'm going to tell the client *before* we start. If they still want it done -- like me wanting the plastic card -- then I happily take their money and deliver what they've been clearly informed they will receive. However, that's not what I've experienced in my SCUBA training.

Of course, I don't personally seem to receive such behavior from others in the the *rest* of my life, so why should SCUBA be different? Maybe there's *just* not enough money involved for such an instructor to handle it any other way.

And I guess that leads to the *next* logical question: why does that bother me so much? I've been disappointed (and worse) by *lots* of vendors before -- I don't know if I'll ever do a total gut-and-remodel of a home again -- but while there 's still such incidents I'm somewhat annoyed about, they don't affect me emotionally. Why have I taken this so personally, so emotionally?

To reiterate: *none* of this is intended as argument, or a refutation of *any* comments, and @stuartv in particular. Just thinking out loud. If you'd like to think out loud too, go for it.

I can tell you what: from here on out, I will be asking that question in some form: "What value will your class provide to me? What if I'm half as good as I think I am and therefore I exceed every minimum in the class? " If their answer is something like, "You'll get a card at the end..." I may need to keep looking!

 

[KevinNM]

The general comments from GUE instructors I’ve talked to is that they try to ensure people get their money’s worth in fundamentals. The ultimate objective is always having perfect trim and buoyancy no matter what you are doing, so they can have you can work on being more perfect and/or at maintaining adequacy while doing complex tasks. For example, filming the other students doing an ascent drill, while you maintain your trim and buoyancy to tech pass standards and maintaining awareness of obstacles.

 

[stuartv]

What I wonder is, was there nothing of value that he could have taught me?

Maybe. Maybe not. But, like I said before, I think it's as true with scuba instructors as it is with anything else in life - there will always be people that do their job and leave some customers wondering "could and should he/she have put more effort into that job?"

I also feel like I have seen some evidence in the past of an attitude from some scuba instructors that they want to deliver what you paid for. But, if you want more than that, you need to pay for that. Even if it turns out that you didn't learn anything in the initial class you took. As an example: An instructor may feel like if you pay for PPB, then there is a (relatively low) standard to meet to pass that class. If you nail that right out of the gate and then you want instruction that would elevate your trim and buoyancy skills to the level that Intro to Tech/Fundies/etc would be expected to produce, then that instructor might simply say "then you need to pay to take Intro/Fundies/etc".

And I'm not saying that is inherently wrong. Another example: An instructor is doing a 1-on-1 OW class for a student. The student has a strong math and science background and disposes of the classroom material in half the time allocated. The student clearly has the background to easily digest the Nitrox class curriculum before the time allocated to the OW classroom is up. Do you expect the instructor to say "well, that was all too easy for you, so I'm going to take it to the next level and teach you Nitrox", with that included at no extra cost in the class?

This train of thought reminds me of the meme I've seen going around. A master welder applies for a job. The ad says "pay is $10 - 30 per hour". The foreman says here, go weld these two pieces together. The welder does his thing and returns the foreman a piece with 2 welds. One is very sloppy looking. One is a work of art. "That one is $10/hr. That one is $30/hr." If you pay for Buoyancy 101, should you expect to get Buoyancy 301 just because the instructor is capable of teaching it?

As consumers, you called it. We have to maybe ask more or better questions before signing up. Or do more vetting in other ways. Or just live with the expectation that sometimes we're going to be disappointed with what we get for our money.

In the end, it's all about establishing the correct expectations up front. If you always get what you expect, then you'll never be disappointed.

 

[huwporter]

Have you considered paying for private coaching rather than taking a class?

Classes, by their very nature, have a specific curriculum. My Nitrox class (in 2001, but I doubt much has changed) consisted of some basic theory (all of which I already knew), some very basic mathematics (all of which I already knew) and a couple of very pleasant dives (where if there was any evaluation going on, it was no more than that my buoyancy and awareness were good enough to not uncontrolledly exceed the MOD and that I could breathe in and out). The fact that it was a cakewalk didn't mean I expected them to start teaching me Trimix, however passing it meant they gave me a card that said I could now buy Nitrox - which was my entire motivation for taking the class.

Pretty much every diving class I've ever taken has primarily been because it unlocked access to new diving rather then specifically for the class content and performance standards - although obviously as the dives to get to where you want to go get more complex, the knowledge and performance standards necessarily become more stringent, that isn't the goal in itself.

Private coaching on the other hand would mean you are explicitly paying for your development in whatever area you wish to develop without the structure and curriculum of a formal course?

 

[Ryan Neely]

in those classes, I was largely being evaluated, not instructed. If I was already above the minimum requirements, there was no requirement to teach me, and so I wasn't taught anything.

I absolutely feel this pain, my friend. This was my experience throughout high school and fifteen years of college. It can be frustrating. I'm glad you're finally in a position to take advantage of advanced training.