My descent into and out of madness: GUE Fundamentals, or Instruction vs Evaluation

[seeker242]

I get it that you're talking about consequences or lack thereof, but that's not about the "lists of things" I have in mind matching up.

I think you are missing the point. "The list" is not what's important, the potential consequences is what's important when considering whether or not to dive with someone.

Diving with non gue in rec mode is easy. But i cant imagine diving tech with non gue.

AKA easy to keep the level of risk near or at the same level on a rec dive, compared to a tech dive.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I think you are missing the point. "The list" is not what's important, the potential consequences is what's important when considering whether or not to dive with someone.

I’m not missing the point—THAT point. I completely agree with what @rjack321 and others have been saying. I never thought otherwise. But the responses I received to MY point were directed to something other than the specific point—well, more like a simple thought—that I was trying to convey. In the broader context, I totally agree with what others have said. And I also agree that the broader context is what matters in terms of safety. I was just making a simple—even simplistic—observation. I’m glad that my simplistic observation opened up a broader discussion and attempt to provide context if that discussion proves helpful to someone. I really am.

Keep in mind that it’s not always easy to tell in a written discussion like this when a reply is intended to shift or broaden what was previously said. Crikey.

 

[EireDiver606]

I understand. I said "procedures and gear." Your examples are what I would call procedural things (as opposed to gear, if we have to coarsely divide the GUE system into two pieces), and it seems to me that tech divers routinely do all those things, just differently depending on where their training came from. I mean, a tech diver is supposed to make a plan, determine how the team will communicate with each other, exercise a level of awareness, etc. If a team of tech divers knows they do those things differently because they come from different backgrounds, they at least have the tech diving mindset in common to agree how they will do those things for this particular dive. Sure, you can't just "agree upon" skills like awareness, but it's my understanding that all beginning tech diving courses go over situational awareness and other such concepts.

Keep in mind I was responding only to the suggestion (as I understood it) that in rec diving a GUE-trained diver is more compatible with a non-GUE-trained diver than in tech diving. I responded that I think it's more the other way around. It seems to me there are so many common concepts across agencies in tech diving, whereas GUE imports into the rec diving realm concepts rooted in tech diving that are alien to other rec agencies.

You seem to think that tech divers are vastly different to rec divers. They’re the same just one go past certain limits with extra gear and procedures. You would think that they act completely differently as their dive could potentially be more dangerous as there’s no direct access to surface once there is a deco obligation. IMO every dive should be treated like a “tech” dive (whatever that is?). Tech or rec - they’re all dives.

If you’re a heavy power lifter, you train your lightest lifts as if they were your competition lifts.
Everyone should have the same diligence and care with each and every dive no matter what the perceived level of risk is. What does everyone think? Do people agree/ disagree?

 

[PfcAJ]

You seem to think that tech divers are vastly different to rec divers. They’re the same just one go past certain limits with extra gear and procedures. You would think that they act completely differently as their dive could potentially be more dangerous as there’s no direct access to surface once there is a deco obligation. IMO every dive should be treated like a “tech” dive (whatever that is?). Tech or rec - they’re all dives.

If you’re a heavy power lifter, you train your lightest lifts as if they were your competition lifts.
Everyone should have the same diligence and care with each and every dive no matter what the perceived level of risk is. What does everyone think? Do people agree/ disagree?

I’ve gotta say no.

Blowing bubbles at 30’ is NOT the same as a 240’ hot drop wreck dive in the Gulf Stream with a scooter rebreather and two deco bottles. It just isn’t.

I can have a 10min conversation with a brand new fresh out of PADI open water class diver and we can go have a blast in 30’, AND do it safely. It doesn’t demand the same detail, planning, strict adherence to certain parameters, communication, coordination, etc that a technical dive does.

Is there value to crossing your Ts and dotting your Is? Yes. Does is require the same level of care and attention to detail that a technical dive does? No.

 

[rjack321]

You seem to think that tech divers are vastly different to rec divers. They’re the same just one go past certain limits with extra gear and procedures. You would think that they act completely differently as their dive could potentially be more dangerous as there’s no direct access to surface once there is a deco obligation. IMO every dive should be treated like a “tech” dive (whatever that is?). Tech or rec - they’re all dives.

If you’re a heavy power lifter, you train your lightest lifts as if they were your competition lifts.
Everyone should have the same diligence and care with each and every dive no matter what the perceived level of risk is. What does everyone think? Do people agree/ disagree?

Disagree

I take non-GUE, non-Dir, generic AOW level divers out on my boat intermittently. People I've never dove with before but doing a reasonable briefing isnt that hard as the boat skipper / lead diver. It's actually pretty easy to have a safe dive with only a modicum of GUEEDGE level dialogue beforehand. I mean there are thousands of reasonably safe dives done every day without scrupulous methodical plans or matching gear.

Max depth is 60ft, swim that way 15 mins then back 10mins at 40ft, the slope is obvious just keep it on your left, let me know when you get to 1000psi, its a small wreck no need to swim fast but I'll follow you. weights, BC, gas/valve check? Any questions?

easy sites, low current, not too deep, no risky gas switches or rebreathers or scooters that separate buddies in 2 seconds of inattention... Why do I need to be all strict on my buddies and plan to do that? And potentially alienate up and coming divers in the process?

 

[Lorenzoid]

Okay, I can't resist getting back into the fray. Happy Friday to you all.

If we interpret EireDiver's statement about "treating every dive as though it were a tech dive" as meaning "applying to rec diving the same principles that people have traditionally thought of as confined to tech diving," then isn't that pretty much what GUE advocates?

One could argue there is a difference in matter of degree or "level of care and attention to detail" as AJ put it, but there are still more T's to cross and I's to dot in adhering to what GUE teaches to rec divers than what others typically teach.

What is your opinion of adhering to the GUE system for rec dives? Unnecessarily burdensome? If so, then when is it okay to gloss over some items, i.e., exercising less care or in less detail? Does it depend on the diver? Is there likely to be some point in my diving future in which I, as an experienced tech diver, come to the realization that I don't need all of that for a 60-foot reef bimble and become confident enough to know what I need to do and what I don't need to do? If so, how will I distinguish that knowledge/confidence from complacency? Is this a case of "when I'm at that point, I'll know it"?

From the perspective of where I am now in my diving, the value I see in adhering closely to the GUE system as it was taught to me, regardless of where a given dive may lie on the spectrum between a 60-foot tropical reef bimble and a 100-foot chilly wreck dive, is that I don't always know precisely where on the spectrum that dive actually lies and what measures that dive calls for or doesn't call for. Since my Fundies class four or five years ago, I have made a point to go through the GUE-EDGE and otherwise adhere to what I was taught, to the best level of care and attention to detail I am able, even for a dive in 20 feet of water (think Blue Heron Bridge), because I suspect that if I get complacent about a 20-ft dive, next time I'll blow off some or all of the details on a 30-ft dive, and so forth.

 

[EireDiver606]

I’ve gotta say no.

Blowing bubbles at 30’ is NOT the same as a 240’ hot drop wreck dive in the Gulf Stream with a scooter rebreather and two deco bottles. It just isn’t.

I can have a 10min conversation with a brand new fresh out of PADI open water class diver and we can go have a blast in 30’, AND do it safely. It doesn’t demand the same detail, planning, strict adherence to certain parameters, communication, coordination, etc that a technical dive does.

Is there value to crossing your Ts and dotting your Is? Yes. Does is require the same level of care and attention to detail that a technical dive does? No.

Disagree

I take non-GUE, non-Dir, generic AOW level divers out on my boat intermittently. People I've never dove with before but doing a reasonable briefing isnt that hard as the boat skipper / lead diver. It's actually pretty easy to have a safe dive with only a modicum of GUEEDGE level dialogue beforehand. I mean there are thousands of reasonably safe dives done every day without scrupulous methodical plans or matching gear.

Max depth is 60ft, swim that way 15 mins then back 10mins at 40ft, the slope is obvious just keep it on your left, let me know when you get to 1000psi, its a small wreck no need to swim fast but I'll follow you. weights, BC, gas/valve check? Any questions?

easy sites, low current, not too deep, no risky gas switches or rebreathers or scooters that separate buddies in 2 seconds of inattention... Why do I need to be all strict on my buddies and plan to do that? And potentially alienate up and coming divers in the process?

@PfcAJ I couldn’t agree more with you. I’m not saying they are the same. They clearly are not, much more planning, equipment, mental and physical capacity, mindset and defined procedures are involved but we should still treat an easy rec dive with the same proficiency as a tech dive. As @rjack said, have a plan, like GUEEDGE, but stick to it as if it’s the same importance as a “tech” dive to not get complacent.
Don’t just jump in the water with no plan “just because” it’s only a “rec” dive to 20m.

Deep rec drift dives may have the same risks as tech dives even though they are rec because of the strong current, and chance of getting swept aways from the boat.

What I’m saying is, whether it’s a big exploration dive for the WKPP or its at 6m as part of skill practice dive, we should give the same mental effort to prepare for it (even though it technically won't have the same logistics) to avoid complacency and a bad diving mindset for when you actually progress to do more “serious” dives.

 

[PfcAJ]

@PfcAJ I couldn’t agree more with you. I’m not saying they are the same. They clearly are not, much more planning, equipment, mental and physical capacity, mindset and defined procedures are involved but we should still treat an easy rec dive with the same proficiency as a tech dive. As @rjack said, have a plan, like GUEEDGE, but stick to it as if it’s the same importance as a “tech” dive to not get complacent.
Don’t just jump in the water with no plan “just because” it’s only a “rec” dive to 20m.

Deep rec drift dives may have the same risks as tech dives even though they are rec because of the strong current, and chance of getting swept aways from the boat.

What I’m saying is, whether it’s a big exploration dive for the WKPP or its at 6m as part of skill practice dive, we should give the same mental effort to prepare for it (even though it technically won't have the same logistics) to avoid complacency and a bad diving mindset for when you actually progress to do more “serious” dives.

I guess I don’t see the point in putting the same mental effort into a dive that doesn’t require a lot of mental effort.

If it works for you to gueedge everything and meticulously plan every detail by all means go for it. For me, I’m more than happy to hop in the water and just enjoy it. No plan needed. Thumbs up on min gas or NDL.

 

[EireDiver606]

I guess I don’t see the point in putting the same mental effort into a dive that doesn’t require a lot of mental effort.

If it works for you to gueedge everything and meticulously plan every detail by all means go for it. For me, I’m more than happy to hop in the water and just enjoy it. No plan needed. Thumbs up on min gas or NDL.

Sure. Interesting.

I mean I don’t meticulously plan everything. I think we all would benefit from it but I guess I just wanted to hear your response as you’re someone who has a lot of relevant experience (from what I’ve read on here) and does dives regularly that I aspire to do in the future.

 

[PfcAJ]

Sure. Interesting.

I mean I don’t meticulously plan everything. I think we all would benefit from it but I guess I just wanted to hear your response as you’re someone who has a lot of relevant experience (from what I’ve read on here) and does dives regularly that I aspire to do in the future.

I’m not trying to dissuade you from planning and executing your dives as you see fit. Just providing another perspective.

Imo, gue provides a toolset. I use those tools (or not) as needed. I generally use them, but there are times where I don’t. When in doubt, go with what ya know.