My descent into and out of madness: GUE Fundamentals, or Instruction vs Evaluation

[rjack321]

What I’m saying is, whether it’s a big exploration dive for the WKPP or its at 6m as part of skill practice dive, we should give the same mental effort to prepare for it (even though it technically won't have the same logistics) to avoid complacency and a bad diving mindset for when you actually progress to do more “serious” dives.

Well I want to relax on shallow not-serious look at the sunny reef dives. So sorry, not sorry, Imma be lazy and complacent and do a minimal plan and go have fun without stressing the details needed for 30-100+m diving.

PS for me minimal plan =
how deep are we going max?
which direction?
for roughly how long? (distance or time?)
when are we turning around? (time, psi, other)
how are we getting "back"? (to shore or the boat)
anything special we're missing here? (do we need an SMB or what happens if we have to come up early etc)

If its someone brand new, like 10 dives out of OW or something like that this is enough of a plan to give them then some sense of what to expect. I don't even go into rock bottom or min gas, I just do that for them and turn us around conservatively. I almost always encourage them to lead and follow them. They are only going to retain about 3 or 4 nuggets of the plan anyway, overwhelming them with highly detailed "plans" doesn't add any value. Coming across as a dive nazi isn't helpful either.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Sounds like that's the answer. GUE gives the rec diver a complete set of tools that is nominally or at a high level the same set they give tech divers. Some divers may use them on all rec dives for the rest of their days. Some divers may use them as training wheels to get used to what they will do in the future on tech dives. Some divers may reach a point where they feel confident they don't need to use all those tools on all rec dives. I'm not there yet, that's for sure. Maybe I have read too many scary stories on SB that included the word "complacency."

 

[CptTightPants21]

Yeah, on short recreational dives it is basically

G-goals/summary dive plan
E-reg check, long hose check, Bubble check, maybe dsmb if there is a drift dive

There might be something about gas, but everyone kinda knows 500psi and these reef and quarry dives are open ended such that when you ask them how much gas is left during the dive it dictates when you start getting closer to shore or boat rather than some kind of set exposure time or turn pressure. Nothing wrong with doing a more thorough plan/check, but these dives are basically swim until you get bored, cold, or get low on gas.

 

[Ayisha]

I guess I don’t see the point in putting the same mental effort into a dive that doesn’t require a lot of mental effort.

If it works for you to gueedge everything and meticulously plan every detail by all means go for it. For me, I’m more than happy to hop in the water and just enjoy it. No plan needed. Thumbs up on min gas or NDL.

You're so refreshing.

Hijack over. Carry on. Oh wait, I think you have all reached some common ground...

 

[EireDiver606]

Well I want to relax on shallow not-serious look at the sunny reef dives. So sorry, not sorry, Imma be lazy and complacent and do a minimal plan and go have fun without stressing the details needed for 30-100+m diving.

PS for me minimal plan =
how deep are we going max?
which direction?
for roughly how long? (distance or time?)
when are we turning around? (time, psi, other)
how are we getting "back"? (to shore or the boat)
anything special we're missing here? (do we need an SMB or what happens if we have to come up early etc)

If its someone brand new, like 10 dives out of OW or something like that this is enough of a plan to give them then some sense of what to expect. I don't even go into rock bottom or min gas, I just do that for them and turn us around conservatively. I almost always encourage them to lead and follow them. They are only going to retain about 3 or 4 nuggets of the plan anyway, overwhelming them with highly detailed "plans" doesn't add any value. Coming across as a dive nazi isn't helpful either.

^ this^

No one wants to listen to dive nazis. I just ignore them completely and do my own thing.

I’m not trying to dissuade you from planning and executing your dives as you see fit. Just providing another perspective.

Imo, gue provides a toolset. I use those tools (or not) as needed. I generally use them, but there are times where I don’t. When in doubt, go with what ya know.

Fair enough. That’s a good point.
What dive conditions constitute as minimum? Nitrix above 30m?
What about other factors like sea current, visibility, time of day (night) etc?

 

[PfcAJ]

^ this^

No one wants to listen to dive nazis. I just ignore them completely and do my own thing.



Fair enough. That’s a good point.
What dive conditions constitute as minimum? Nitrix above 30m?
What about other factors like sea current, visibility, time of day (night) etc?

I don’t think I can give you a formula. It just depends.

If you asked me 5 years ago I’d give you something different than what I’d say today, which is probably different than what I’ll say 5 years from now.

Really, this is one of my gripes about gue training. People throw around the term “thinking diver” but I think the seemingly rigid method discourages critical thought.

I can’t even remember the last time I did a “gue edge”. That doesn’t mean dives aren’t planned, just that gues method isn’t what o use for every little detail of every dive.

 

[rjack321]

What dive conditions constitute as minimum? Nitrix above 30m?
What about other factors like sea current, visibility, time of day (night) etc?

For me? I haven't done a GUEEDGE since C2 over 10yrs ago although I think the last few times I dove with TS&M before her death she did a formal gueedge. Most of my local buddies dont do anything like gue's or utd's nonmonic either. When we're on my boat I usually know the site best and so I give a DM level briefing. Which is similar to the list I rattled off in post #100.

AJ and I dove Eagle's Nest together once a couple years ago when I was in FL. 220ft for an hour on CCR/SCR with 3 hrs of deco. We didn't do a gueedge. We did pretty much hit all those points (over a 90min breakfast), just not like that. Its a nice structure but doesnt really work for me - I feel like it creates a very rigid plan when on a 4 hr dive everything is a lot more dynamic & fluid. Like if we had only done a 50min dive our deco would have been completely different - likewise if we'd done 75mins or averaged 210ft. Or if the 21/35 deco bottle was lost etc etc. You end up agonizing over the plan - which doesnt really survive impact with the water anyway.

 

[EireDiver606]

Interesting.

So do you think that GUE EDGE doesn’t really apply 100% well for really big dives and there’s a better approach to the small details that GUEEDGE doesn’t cover?

Or do you just personally prefer to use a different plan? Is it something to do with name? (Sone say GUE edge sounds arrogant)

 

[rjack321]

It doesnt work well for me. Big or small dives.

Nowadays I do a briefing more like a DM brief (about the site) - usually before my gear is even on. Expected deco and gases are all discussed well ahead of time, also before we're even geared up. Ditto going over any team gear that's relevant like SMBs or reels. I dont repeat all this while standing in the water.

Then lastly use dr mike's CCR checklist for my personal splash checklist. Head to toe gear check... well CCRs and person specific sidemount etc it just isnt suited for that.

Things I dont usually address (at least as explicitly as gueedge) are who's leading and the goal. Sometimes the person in front is not leading for instance. Or we are side by side etc.

 

[seeker242]

What is your opinion of adhering to the GUE system for rec dives? Unnecessarily burdensome? If so, then when is it okay to gloss over some items, i.e., exercising less care or in less detail?

Unnecessarily burdensome? No, but I don't think you need to do a GUE EDGE verbatim, on every dive. Just a basic dive plan covers most of it anyway.