My descent into and out of madness: GUE Fundamentals, or Instruction vs Evaluation

[Lorenzoid]

Errors in cave dives kill people. Bad buddies in cave dives kill skilled divers. Rec dives you can always say screw that and go to the surface. You can't do that when you have 90 minutes of deco, or have 100 feet of rock overhead.

Yes, but to reword my question, are you saying that a team composed of a GUE cave diver and a non-GUE cave diver is dangerously prone to error? If that's what you're arguing, fine--that's all I was asking. I know there are GUE divers who refuse to dive with non-GUE divers. More generally, I suspect divers prefer diving with people who dive the way they do because they are less likely to make errors due to some mis-match that wasn't (or couldn't be) addressed before the dive.

None of that changes my thinking that a GUE rec diver is less like a non-GUE rec diver than a GUE tech diver is like a non-GUE tech diver.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I have heard horror stories about terrible instructors who teach a lot of classes at the tech level. If the instructor can't perform at the level expected of a tech diver, how good are their students?

I don't think we're in disagreement. I'm not talking about matters of degree or level of performance. I'm talking about what's objectively involved. Think of a bullet point list of things--gear, procedures, mindset, etc.--that characterize the GUE system (in both the rec and tech realms) and a list of things that characterize alternative ways of rec diving and tech diving. It seems to me that the lists match up more closely on the tech side than the rec side.

I apologize for the off-topic discussion. If someone wants this bit moved to its own thread, feel free to report.

 

[rjack321]

Oh man there’s a TON of variation.

I’ve been on only a handful of tech dives with non-DIR folk. Wasn’t the most comfortable experience just because I wasn’t super familiar with their gear and procedures as I am with the GUE method.

Was it safe enough? Yeah l, I think so. Ideal? Definitely not and I prefer not to make a habit of it.

It’s super easy to hop in the water on a rec dive just because the variables are so much less. Everyone has a BC and reg, they all function pretty much the same, communication is simple and truly non critical for most things, gas is easy, there’s no deco to sort out, etc etc you get the point I’m sure.

By some miracle you survived exposure to my Meg. How you continue to survive that Kevorkian machine with no cells at all is beyond me

 

[PfcAJ]

By some miracle you survived exposure to my Meg. How you continue to survive that Kevorkian machine with no cells at all is beyond me

Haha, it was terror the whole time!

 

[rjack321]

I don't think we're in disagreement. I'm not talking about matters of degree or level of performance. I'm talking about what's objectively involved. Think of a bullet point list of things--gear, procedures, mindset, etc.--that characterize the GUE system (in both the rec and tech realms) and a list of things that characterize alternative ways of rec diving and tech diving. It seems to me that the lists match up more closely on the tech side than the rec side.

They don't though. And it's really the consequences that matter. Doing a 60ft swim around with someone in a jacket BC and stuffed octo and dangly primary light (if at all) is really not a big deal. Its not that deep, you can see each other, follow the less aware diver around if you have to. Discreetly peek at their gauge so you know where you are (collectively) on gas even if "rock bottom" is foreign to them. You can have only the most rudimentary stuff in common (breathing air?) and still have a decent time.

Deeper or in a cave and suddenly that dangly disco ball light is a huge impediment to progress, you cant check their gauge easy. If they swim away from you can lose them far easier. If they violate rock bottom that's "your" gas they dipped into.

 

[Lorenzoid]

They don't though. And it's really the consequences that matter. Doing a 60ft swim around with someone in a jacket BC and stuffed octo and dangly primary light (if at all) is really not a big deal. Its not that deep, you can see each other, follow the less aware diver around if you have to. Discreetly peek at their gauge so you know where you are (collectively) on gas even if "rock bottom" is foreign to them. You can have only the most rudimentary stuff in common (breathing air?) and still have a decent time.

I get it that you're talking about consequences or lack thereof, but that's not about the "lists of things" I have in mind matching up. The non-GUE things you mention--jacket BC, dangly light, never heard of "awareness" or rock bottom--don't match up with what's on the GUE rec diving "list," whereas a non-GUE tech diver at least has a BP/W, a long hose, a suitable primary light, some understanding of the concept of awareness, and has done a gas calculation--all of which match something on the GUE list.

Deeper or in a cave and suddenly that dangly disco ball light is a huge impediment to progress, you cant check their gauge easy. If they swim away from you can lose them far easier. If they violate rock bottom that's "your" gas they dipped into.

Okay, here is where I may need to be educated. Are you saying that some cave divers use a "dangly disco ball light," are prone to swimming away from you, and knowingly violate thirds or rock bottom? If so, I naively say I'm surprised because I thought modern cave training has been, at its core or highest level, sort of standardized across agencies. Whether it's GUE or TDI or whoever, they all base their curriculum roughly on Exley's rules and accident analysis, right? The list of things that characterize "cave diving" as opposed to some other kind of diving would match up between GUE and another agency, and to return to my original thought, the list of things that characterize "rec diving" would match less closely between GUE and another agency.

 

[Goingforsound]

In open water you just have to extract what you need from the regular briefing, ask questions if its incomplete.

You are not going to argue about deco gas, deco schedule, all the gue procedures.

I explain my long hose config to my buddy and that it is.

Stay open minded and dont force the GUE thing down every other diver on the boat.

On a tech dive (which I do not perform at the moment) I do not think i would like to negotiate for gas and procedures. The GUE system is very well tought out and simple. I have see other divers argue for a when planning a dive and i strongly feel that dissimilar equipment and procedure are a threat when emergency sets on.

 

[Griffo]

@tmassey Thanks for the great writeup firstly. I think your thoughts are probably like many people post class, and over time your perspective may shift a little as you reflect. It's certainly a humbling experience at first - I think the worst ascent's I have ever done, OW class included, were during my Fundies. Embarrassing but a learning moment too.

---

On this whole GUE diving with non GUE divers.. pretty much every dive post course has been with non GUE divers, my regular buddy (wife) excluded. But we're almost always be in a larger group, and most dives we'd follow the terrain up more-so than being a square dive where we're doing min-deco ascents to "be GUE". We do however remain a solid buddy pair inside the group, and given recent events thank gosh for that.

5 years ago, i'd jump on a boat and everyone would be like "what the hell is that gear". And i'd smile and nod and talk about why i prefer BP/W's and the long hose etc. These days, it's really just the long-hose and can-light that ever draws any attention. Every second diver seems to be diving BP/W's these days, mostly with some skill, but not always.

When I dive without my wife, i'll just do a normal buddy check, and do the dive. I will however mention that I'll donate my primary if they haven't dived with a long-hose diver before and show a quick s-drill to demonstrate.That adds about 15 seconds to the pre-dive chat. If it's a night or wreck dive I'll probably talk about light signals. I'm hardly taking them to the dark side.

I've never tried to convert anybody to GUE or get them to do GUEEDGE or similar. I don't mention anything you wouldn't hear from any other diver, unless specifically asked.
(I did however once meet someone on another course who had signed up based on my SB Fundies report, I thought that was pretty cool)

I do sometimes get questions about trim etc post dive at which point I might say I did a thing called Fundies and explain the agencies background. But I've tried my best to be the quiet one, it's not like i'm a T2 evel CCR diver, just an open ocean flounderer.

I have however had a couple of people on dive boats try to tell me why the systems wrong and crap and how i'll die with a long-hose in ocean diving. I just smile and wave and then do my best to look cool underwater.

 

[KevinNM]

Yes, but to reword my question, are you saying that a team composed of a GUE cave diver and a non-GUE cave diver is dangerously prone to error?

Not so much that they are dangerously prone, but you don't know anything about how they dive if you haven't gone diving with them. And they can be a great diver, but they do something very different than you expect. It's more predictable diving with people whose training you understand.

Now if you know them and how they do things then it's completely different. I'm talking about diving with relative or complete strangers on non-recreational dives, where the consequences for errors can be extremely severe.

I've heard of people who go diving with total strangers they met in the parking lot at Ginnie or Peacock, but this doesn't seem to be generally felt to be a good idea. My understanding is that this is not uncommon for GUE teams of strangers to do reasonably complex dives without running assessment dives.

 

[rjack321]

Okay, here is where I may need to be educated. Are you saying that some cave divers use a "dangly disco ball light," are prone to swimming away from you, and knowingly violate thirds or rock bottom? If so, I naively say I'm surprised because I thought modern cave training has been, at its core or highest level, sort of standardized across agencies. Whether it's GUE or TDI or whoever, they all base their curriculum roughly on Exley's rules and accident analysis, right?

Yes and if you go to N FL or MX you will see some absolutely horrible "cave" divers with all the cards that really should never have made it past AOW. disco ball lights, 45deg trim, nearly non-existent gas plan. Some of the worst are in SM with tanks hanging 6+inches below their body like stages, reels and spools clipped all over their butt, not yielding to exiting divers. Just hang out at Ginnie or Peacock or Dos Ojos for 1 day. Curriculum doesnt mean squat if the instructor is awful or just in it for the money.