My descent into and out of madness: GUE Fundamentals, or Instruction vs Evaluation

[KevinNM]

I've seen people have major issues with the written test. It's there to ensure you understand certain critical concepts, and it you don't then that is a big deal. Mer worked with one student in my class after the class via internet/phone to ensure that they understood the critical concepts.

And yes, Mer is a great instructor.

 

[KevinNM]

That seems backwards to me. The way tech gear is configured, and the procedures, are actually more uniform across agencies, instructors, etc., than rec gear and procedures.

The risk is a LOT higher.

 

[Lorenzoid]

The risk is a LOT higher.

I don't follow you. You mean the risk is higher because of the mis-match between GUE and non-GUE procedures and gear, or because of an assumption that non-GUE divers are of unknown skill level?

 

[rjack321]

That seems backwards to me. The way tech gear is configured, and the procedures, are actually more uniform across agencies, instructors, etc., than rec gear and procedures.

Well its not really about the gear.

As @tmassey articulated, there's the plan, the prebrief review of the plan, the expectation, the within dive communication, the awareness. All those soft things end up being more important that if you have the "wrong" regulator, or the type of backup light you have, or if you have a corded vs non-corded primary, how you do a valve drill, if you have an open or closed bottom SMB etc.

 

[PfcAJ]

That seems backwards to me. The way tech gear is configured, and the procedures, are actually more uniform across agencies, instructors, etc., than rec gear and procedures.

Oh man there’s a TON of variation.

I’ve been on only a handful of tech dives with non-DIR folk. Wasn’t the most comfortable experience just because I wasn’t super familiar with their gear and procedures as I am with the GUE method.

Was it safe enough? Yeah l, I think so. Ideal? Definitely not and I prefer not to make a habit of it.

It’s super easy to hop in the water on a rec dive just because the variables are so much less. Everyone has a BC and reg, they all function pretty much the same, communication is simple and truly non critical for most things, gas is easy, there’s no deco to sort out, etc etc you get the point I’m sure.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Well its not really about the gear.

As @tmassey articulated, there's the plan, the prebrief review of the plan, the expectation, the within dive communication, the awareness. All those soft things end up being more important that if you have the "wrong" regulator, or the type of backup light you have, or if you have a corded vs non-corded primary, how you do a valve drill, if you have an open or closed bottom SMB etc.

I understand. I said "procedures and gear." Your examples are what I would call procedural things (as opposed to gear, if we have to coarsely divide the GUE system into two pieces), and it seems to me that tech divers routinely do all those things, just differently depending on where their training came from. I mean, a tech diver is supposed to make a plan, determine how the team will communicate with each other, exercise a level of awareness, etc. If a team of tech divers knows they do those things differently because they come from different backgrounds, they at least have the tech diving mindset in common to agree how they will do those things for this particular dive. Sure, you can't just "agree upon" skills like awareness, but it's my understanding that all beginning tech diving courses go over situational awareness and other such concepts.

Keep in mind I was responding only to the suggestion (as I understood it) that in rec diving a GUE-trained diver is more compatible with a non-GUE-trained diver than in tech diving. I responded that I think it's more the other way around. It seems to me there are so many common concepts across agencies in tech diving, whereas GUE imports into the rec diving realm concepts rooted in tech diving that are alien to other rec agencies.

 

[KevinNM]

I don't follow you. You mean the risk is higher because of the mis-match between GUE and non-GUE procedures and gear, or because of an assumption that non-GUE divers are of unknown skill level?

Errors in cave dives kill people. Bad buddies in cave dives kill skilled divers. Rec dives you can always say screw that and go to the surface. You can't do that when you have 90 minutes of deco, or have 100 feet of rock overhead.

 

[rjack321]

I understand. I said "procedures and gear." Your examples are what I would call procedural things (as opposed to gear, if we have to coarsely divide the GUE system into two pieces), and it seems to me that tech divers routinely do all those things, just differently depending on where their training came from. I mean, a tech diver is supposed to make a plan, determine how the team will communicate with each other, exercise a level of awareness, etc. If a team of tech divers knows they do those things differently because they come from different backgrounds, they at least have the tech diving mindset in common to agree how they will do those things for this particular dive. Sure, you can't just "agree upon" skills like awareness, but it's my understanding that all beginning tech diving courses go over situational awareness and other such concepts..

Yea I know but in reality the "same ocean" buddy system is alive and "well" in some parts of the non-GUE universe. The OP is AN/DP and all this was new and unfamiliar. Many AN/DP (and higher or cave) courses are taught to a single diver (private class) where its impossible to instill any kind of team ethos or even a decent understanding of what is and isn't situational awareness. If you're effectively solo, then buddy awareness, light discipline and communication doesn't really apply etc.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .

It’s super easy to hop in the water on a rec dive just because the variables are so much less. Everyone has a BC and reg, they all function pretty much the same, communication is simple and truly non critical for most things, gas is easy, there’s no deco to sort out, etc etc you get the point I’m sure.

As I see it, if a GUE rec diver is sticking to the GUE system, his non-GUE buddy is not likely to have a clue about the GUE guy's long hose, attempt to communicate using a light, gas calculation, etc. A tech diver, even from another agency, would recognize those things right away, though he may do them very differently. You're right that coordinating any of that with the non-GUE buddy is probably "non critical" on a rec dive, but my point is that it's all very different, and perhaps more different than between a GUE and non-GUE tech diver.

 

[KevinNM]

As I see it, if a GUE rec diver is sticking to the GUE system, his non-GUE buddy is not likely to have a clue about the GUE guy's long hose, attempt to communicate using a light, gas calculation, etc. A tech diver, even from another agency, would recognize those things right away, though he may do them very differently. You're right that coordinating any of that with the non-GUE buddy is probably "non critical" on a rec dive, but my point is that it's all very different, and perhaps more different than between a GUE and non-GUE tech diver.

I have heard horror stories about terrible instructors who teach a lot of classes at the tech level. If the instructor can't perform at the level expected of a tech diver, how good are their students?