Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

[Rooster In Ohio]

I just spent an hour trying to articulate what the three posts above (Peter Guy, rjack, guyharris) said very well. I am fine with "Don't plan on needing gas, take care of yourself." I also recognize the reality that, no matter how much any organization preaches "no man left behind", when someone is dead or cannot be saved, those that can be saved need to do everything they can to go on living. But if lighting ever does strike and I am one of the ones that safely reaches the surface and goes on living, I want to be very sure that I can live with myself and know that I could not have done anything, in planning, execution, or reaction, to save the lost.

 

[CT-Rich]

Holy cow! I read the Chatterton article and I have read a portion of the posts on this thread and it like people making a literal interpretation of poetry. Guys, look at the dives he is talking about, if you think he can dive down more than 200 fsw and do a deep penetration on a wreck like the Doria and have enough gas to get back to the surface while sharing air, you must be crazy. Entering the water for that type of diving and thinking your buddy is going to share air after any significant portion of the dive is insane. Chatterton has enough air to get in, get out and some reserve. If he shares air, he will in the most optimistic outcome get to the surface bent, more likely dead. Certain types of diving are more dangerous than others. Going deep, wreck penetration dives and caves all are inherently more risky. At some point have to accept that there isn't enough to go around. DON'T GET IN THE WATER IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO UNDERSTAND THIS! Chatterton has a right to go home at the end of the day. Say he being selfish is unfair. Expecting that your buddy will die with you because you were foolish or unlucky makes you the selfish one.

What is better one diver dieing and one surviving, or two corpses being recovered? The same is true climing Everest. sometimes you just have to cut the rope and save yourself. Everyone in the group understands that there may be a point where they might need to be left behind so the others can survive. It sucks, you plan in a way to avoid it and minimize the risk, but at the end of the day you have to understand in an extreme environment, it may come to that (that is why it is call extreme). Chatterton doesn't get sherpas to carry all the extra gear he might need in the event his buddy has a problem.

The solo dive he was performing had its risks. He understood the risks, found them acceptable and realized that a buddy was of limited value and made the dive. Was this good descion? he lived to tell about it, but if he died he wasn't taking anyone else with him.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Holy cow! I read the Chatterton article and I have read a portion of the posts on this thread and it like people making a literal interpretation of poetry. Guys, look at the dives he is talking about, if you think he can dive down more than 200 fsw and do a deep penetration on a wreck like the Doria and have enough gas to get back to the surface, you must be crazy. Entering the water for that type of diving and thinking your buddy is going to share air after any significant portion of the dive is insane. Chatterton has enough air to get in, get out and some reserve. If he shares the air he will in the most optimistic outcome get to the surface bent, more likely dead. Certain types of diving are more dangerous than others. Going deep, wreck penetration dives and caves all are inherently more risky. At some point have to accept that there isn't enough to go around. DON'T GET IN THE WATER IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO UNDERSTAND THIS! Chatterton has a right to go home at the end of the day. Say he being selfish is unfair. Expecting that your buddy will die with you because you were foolish or unlucky makes you the selfish one.

What is better one diver dieing and one surviving, or two corpses being recovered? The same is true climing Evrest. sometimes you just have to cut the rope and save yourself. Everyone in the group understands that there may be a point where the might need to be left behind so the others can survive. It sucks, you plan in a way to avoid it and minimize the risk, but at the end of the day you have to understand in an extreme environment, it may come to that (that is why it is call extreme). Chatterton doesn't get sherpas to carry all the extra gear he might need in the event his buddy has a problem.

People that climb Everest know that they are extremely vunerable to the weather, accidents and medical complications. They also know that it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to plan for the worst case scenario and get somebody out alive. Hell some of the bodies are still up there.

However, in diving, it IS generally possible to carry enough gas to get a pair of divers out of trouble. If they plan for it as a team, it is feasible. That is a very big distinction.

Now if you are talking about crazy, solo, penetrations in deep wrecks on air with no guidline.... I totally can understand that that kind of dive is better done solo....

However, the letter was not written for those types of people. It has to be directed toward the "normal" tech diver student ( I assume)..

I've never shared air with someone at 200 feet, but i would not dive with someone in 200 feet if I thought that it would be impossible to accomplish the task. If a buddy is incapable of rendering assitance, then you are far better off being alone on a dive.

 

[TSandM]

I think there is such an enormous disconnect, that some of the people participating here literally live in different universes.

If I dove with a random assortment of buddies, and I did the dives Mr. Chatterton is talking about, I might well end up with his attitude.

I don't think very many people who haven't experienced the kind of high-intensity, pressure-cooker training I've been through, can understand to what degree you can count on the people who do. Does everybody have a breaking point? Absolutely -- I'm sure they do. I'm sure there's some amount of stress that can make a reliable teammate turn into a horrendous hazard. I also think it's VERY, VERY unlikely that any of us will ever get there. Solid, conscientious planning; meticulous gear maintenance; obsessive skills practice; consistently conservative decision-making, and a commitment to one another, will keep us from getting that far into the pit.

I don't do 400 foot dives, and I never will. But I have been almost two hours from the nearest place you could surface, and I can say that my team had enough gas to get any of us out from there -- and we WOULD do it. We would bring out a compromised diver like the ill lady to whom I referred elsewhere.

Unless it were my husband, I would probably not die with a teammate; if it were my fault that we were that badly in trouble, I would wave the other person on. I simply can't imagine how we would get there.

We don't understand one another because our worlds are different. Different dives, planning,, strategies and buddies lead to different philosophies. I like mine

 

[BlackPatch]

People that climb Everest know that they are extremely vunerable to the weather, accidents and medical complications. They also know that it is literally IMPOSSIBLE to plan for the worst case scenario and get somebody out alive. Hell some of the bodies are still up there.

However, in diving, it IS generally possible to carry enough gas to get a pair of divers out of trouble. If they plan for it as a team, it is feasible. That is a very big distinction.

Now if you are talking about crazy, solo, penetrations in deep wrecks on air with no guidline.... I totally can understand that that kind of dive is better done solo....

However, the letter was not written for those types of people. It has to be directed toward the "normal" tech diver student ( I assume)..

I've never shared air with someone at 200 feet, but i would not dive with someone in 200 feet if I thought that it would be impossible to accomplish the task. If a buddy is incapable of rendering assitance, then you are far better off being alone on a dive.

Dumpster Diver.

The vast majority of Human Beings who climb Everest do so on Gas. The reason for doing so is that you are operating at 1/3 of the available oxygen content as compared to sea level. Above 26 thousand feet you are in The Death Zone. It is a place that the body CANNOT survive for extended periods of time. Your cells are dying. Read a book entitled Death Zone: above 26000 feet.

Many who die on Everest do so due to Oedemic incidents and the fact that the body CANNOT survive at that altitude. Calorific intake is 1/3 of that at sea level. You struggle to eat therefore your body devours is reserve food stores. Yet others die of Hypothermia. Some fall. Some are crushed in Serac collapses on the ice field or are killed in Crevasses.

How can you dive to below 200 fsw and not know that existing medical conditions, accidents, hypothermic incidents etc not be a possible source of Death?

You are in an Extreme environment, just as you are above 26000 feet, you require your equipment to keep you alive and your mental stamina to drive you on, be that to accomplish your goal or accomplish a successful retreat. Hopefully a Buddy can help you but if they are also in the same state then neither of you are having a good day.

There is a point on Everest that Climbers have been left to die. You read about, maybe are sad about it. That is the reality of the endeavour mate. It is a reality of Climbing to the extremes. It is also a reality of EXTREME level dives. You read about it, maybe are sad about it but what do you really LEARN from it?

There is a story of a successful rescue from 27000 feet on Everest. 2 of the rescuers died. Extremely accomplished climbers. They were Climbers with families. Both got killed due to exhaustion and succumbing to the effects of AS (after they gave the dying climber their gas) due to over exertion from trying to save a guy who was clinging to life by the barest thread.

The guy in question lost an arm, all his toes and fingers on his remaining hand and most of his nose and lips to frost bite.

Two families that could have had Husbands and Fathers at home, had they not done what they did and given up their Gas to keep him Oxygenated and slaved away to get him down thus dying of Oedemas, could have lived fuller lives.

Your comparison of the Extreme conditions on the worlds highest peak and ultra hardcore diving are not thought through. Your experience as a Diver dwarfs mine. I admit that, yet don't patronize me about safety margins after I have seen Men and Women Die climbing. My thought processes which I apply to Hardcore Climbing apply to Diving. IF I CAN HELP YOU I WILL AND I WILL MOVE HEAVEN AND EARTH TO BRING YOU HOME TO THE PEOPLE WHO LOVE YOU, I IF I CAN REASONABLY ENSURE MY SAFETY. I ALSO HAVE A WOMAN WHO LOVES ME TOO AND WANT TO GO HOME TO HER AT THE END OF THE DAY. IF NOT, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN.

 

[PfcAJ]

Holy cow! I read the Chatterton article and I have read a portion of the posts on this thread and it like people making a literal interpretation of poetry. Guys, look at the dives he is talking about, if you think he can dive down more than 200 fsw and do a deep penetration on a wreck like the Doria and have enough gas to get back to the surface while sharing air, you must be crazy. Entering the water for that type of diving and thinking your buddy is going to share air after any significant portion of the dive is insane. Chatterton has enough air to get in, get out and some reserve. If he shares air, he will in the most optimistic outcome get to the surface bent, more likely dead. Certain types of diving are more dangerous than others. Going deep, wreck penetration dives and caves all are inherently more risky. At some point have to accept that there isn't enough to go around. DON'T GET IN THE WATER IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO UNDERSTAND THIS!

I've done a few fairly long range and deep cave dives (like 3/4 of a mile in a 240' siphon, and over twice that distance in shallower caves) and we've always had enough gas to share. Saying that it can't be done or is crazy is simply not true. It's not even difficult or complicated. In the ocean it's even easier since you aren't hours from being able to start the ascent.

 

[boulderjohn]

I've done a few fairly long range and deep cave dives (like 3/4 of a mile in a 240' siphon, and over twice that distance in shallower caves) and we've always had enough gas to share. Saying that it can't be done or is crazy is simply not true. It's not even difficult or complicated. In the ocean it's even easier since you aren't hours from being able to start the ascent.

I agree and find ct-rich's statement that you cannot do such a dive with enough gas to bring a buddy to the surface baffling. I admit that my deepest dive so far is only 310 feet, but I finished that dive with plenty of gas, and the potential needs of a teammate was very much a part of the pre-dive plan.

That planning was part of the training I received for my Advanced Trimix certification. It was also part of the training I received for my tech instructor certification. Interestingly enough, those certifications are through TDI, the same agency through which John teaches.

Also interestingly enough, I know an active TDI instructor trainer who is also affiliated with GUE and teaches his TDI students in strict adherence with DIR principles. I know another TDI instructor who is also a UTD instructor and who does the same.

 

[ScubaSteve]

There was nothing about John's original post that was "just to make people think". It was first person and very clear.But, as I said in his article thread, I would still dive with him......if I made deep deco dives that is......just with my eyes open to what the diver relationship actually was (i.e. not a buddy or a team dive).

 

[HowardE]

NOBODY, is saying a diver should rely on someone else in the first place-- but some of us certainly are saying a diver should reasonbly rely on one's buddy if necessary. YOUR "buddy" seems to have written, no one should rely on me even IF necessary. Is that the message YOU want to send to the public?

How do I reconcile this?

Simple.

If you are running out of gas on a deep dive, you had no business making that dive in the first place.

Think about it... It's a scare tactic for people who are thinking about making deep dives that may not be ready for them

(This isn't a message to new divers... It's about deep advanced diving)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Holy cow! I read the Chatterton article and I have read a portion of the posts on this thread and it like people making a literal interpretation of poetry. Guys, look at the dives he is talking about, if you think he can dive down more than 200 fsw and do a deep penetration on a wreck like the Doria and have enough gas to get back to the surface while sharing air, you must be crazy. Entering the water for that type of diving and thinking your buddy is going to share air after any significant portion of the dive is insane. Chatterton has enough air to get in, get out and some reserve. If he shares air, he will in the most optimistic outcome get to the surface bent, more likely dead. Certain types of diving are more dangerous than others. Going deep, wreck penetration dives and caves all are inherently more risky. At some point have to accept that there isn't enough to go around. DON'T GET IN THE WATER IF YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO UNDERSTAND THIS! Chatterton has a right to go home at the end of the day. Say he being selfish is unfair. Expecting that your buddy will die with you because you were foolish or unlucky makes you the selfish one.

What is better one diver dieing and one surviving, or two corpses being recovered? The same is true climing Everest. sometimes you just have to cut the rope and save yourself. Everyone in the group understands that there may be a point where they might need to be left behind so the others can survive. It sucks, you plan in a way to avoid it and minimize the risk, but at the end of the day you have to understand in an extreme environment, it may come to that (that is why it is call extreme). Chatterton doesn't get sherpas to carry all the extra gear he might need in the event his buddy has a problem.

The solo dive he was performing had its risks. He understood the risks, found them acceptable and realized that a buddy was of limited value and made the dive. Was this good descion? he lived to tell about it, but if he died he wasn't taking anyone else with him.

Carrying adequate gas to support either yourself or your team is a choice you make during the planning stage of the dive. Any diver of Chatterton's stature understands that. The choices you make are based as much on your diving philosophy as they are the nature of the dive.

I believe it is possible to carry adequate reserves to assist a dive buddy, even under the circumstances you describe. Cavers and wreck divers do it all the time. Choosing not to is a viable option only if you've either made it clear to the person you're diving with that these are your choices ... or if you decide not to accompany another diver on this dive. Setting that sort of expectation is also part of planning the dive.

Agreed that carrying reserve gas for your buddy sometimes means bringing stages ... and that increases the complexity of the dive. But it's not impossible ... it's just a matter of how you choose to do the dive, and the plans you make to accommodate your choices.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)