Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

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so how does the dive briefing go?? I will be heading west, if i see your MFing light shine anywhere near me I am going to kick your ass. See this regulator here around my neck? You touch it you die. I will kill you. See this here? this is my lunch.. if you touch it, I am going to kick your ass... i counted the cookies in the zip lock bag, they are all for me and none are for you; if one is missing, I'm going to fight you for it.

If you feel something against your facemask on the descent down the anchor line... it will probably be my fin tips and I WILL be trying to kick your mask off... because you shouldn't be going on this dive if you need a mask anyway.

HAVE A NICE DIVE!


Not nearly so dramatic. And not on every dive. If we have the same mission goal then we will plan the dive so that there is adequate gas for an emergency. But when the goal is not the same I don't.

So it goes kinda like this. Mate or captain gives the briefing. Which really is not much as we already know what the wreck is, how deep, how cold, and what we plan to do on it. The briefing is more or less for those who are directionally challenged. Bow is that way, stern is that way. Water temp last week was 40 degrees on the bottom with 40 ft vis min.

From there on it's pool is open. As we enter we tell the mate what expected run time is.

As for the "buddy teams" they may be diving as proper teams in whcih case they have planned for that and all that goes along with it. Others may have the goal of descending together to the wreck then splitting up. And meeting or not meeting on the up line. So they plan their dives for them as individuals. We know this going in. It is understood that if I can help I will but chances are I'm not going to be anywhere you can get to in time for me to do that. Can you swim with no air for 150 feet from the bow to the stern? And since you don't know if I will even be there when you get there as I am sticking to my run time are you willing to risk it?

These things are understood. They don't need to be made a big dramatic production of. It is a choice that is made by informed people who know the risks. Obviously it's not DIR. I don't care as neither am I. At one time I wanted to take GUE training. Just because. But time, money, and lack of suitable teammates who could dive when I wanted to where I wanted to made that impractical. If I had to dive with a team all the time I wouldn't get half the dives in that I do. Nothing wrong at all with the approach. It;s just not for me.

This was all I was going to say until a thought hit me at work.

I have regs to service and a pool appointment so this is the last I am going to say for a few hours. While so many are all up in arms about the stance that seems to be advocated as stupid, dangerous, evil, and perhaps even blasphemous I find a good deal of hypocrisy as well.

If this stance of not helping a diver in trouble is so bad why are so many teaching an Open Water class that doesn't even contain rudimentary rescue skills that used to be in all basic classes. Unless one has a cramp or are "tired". Then you know what to do.

But if the OW diver or the OW diver and his/her equally trained and experienced buddy:
1. come upon a non responsive diver at depth,
2. a panicked diver at the surface or underwater,
3. a grossly overweighted diver whose BC has failed and needs assistance surfacing and staying positive at the surface until they drop or are assisted in dropping lead, or
4. a diver that needs to towed to shore and their gear removed to facilitate a fast exit from the water they are SOL.


Because the newer divers are thought to be incapable of learning these very basic techniques to deal with such problems. At least until they have been fleeced for more money for "adventure dives" and a Rescue class. A class that by the way many never take because they have been trained to rely on a DM, AI, Guide, or Instructor.

So which is worse. An experienced diver being honest about not helping someone. OR a new diver being denied the skills and knowledge to help the people more likely to need assistance on a more frequent basis?

How do DIR divers reconcile or view this? When members who profess to abide by team principles stand by or assist those who do not. Or who knowingly assist in putting divers in the water who are incapable of planning the most basic of dives on ther own?

How can anyone who will not give new divers the tools to even try to help a fellow diver throw stones? Or teach for an agency that denies new divers these skills?
 
Not nearly so dramatic. And not on every dive. If we have the same mission goal then we will plan the dive so that there is adequate gas for an emergency. But when the goal is not the same I don't.

So it goes kinda like this. Mate or captain gives the briefing. Which really is not much as we already know what the wreck is, how deep, how cold, and what we plan to do on it. The briefing is more or less for those who are directionally challenged. Bow is that way, stern is that way. Water temp last week was 40 degrees on the bottom with 40 ft vis min.

From there on it's pool is open. As we enter we tell the mate what expected run time is.

As for the "buddy teams" they may be diving as proper teams in whcih case they have planned for that and all that goes along with it. Others may have the goal of descending together to the wreck then splitting up. And meeting or not meeting on the up line. So they plan their dives for them as individuals. We know this going in. It is understood that if I can help I will but chances are I'm not going to be anywhere you can get to in time for me to do that. Can you swim with no air for 150 feet from the bow to the stern? And since you don't know if I will even be there when you get there as I am sticking to my run time are you willing to risk it?

These things are understood. They don't need to be made a big dramatic production of. It is a choice that is made by informed people who know the risks. Obviously it's not DIR. I don't care as neither am I. At one time I wanted to take GUE training. Just because. But time, money, and lack of suitable teammates who could dive when I wanted to where I wanted to made that impractical. If I had to dive with a team all the time I wouldn't get half the dives in that I do. Nothing wrong at all with the approach. It;s just not for me.

This was all I was going to say until a thought hit me at work.

I have regs to service and a pool appointment so this is the last I am going to say for a few hours. While so many are all up in arms about the stance that seems to be advocated as stupid, dangerous, evil, and perhaps even blasphemous I find a good deal of hypocrisy as well.

If this stance of not helping a diver in trouble is so bad why are so many teaching an Open Water class that doesn't even contain rudimentary rescue skills that used to be in all basic classes. Unless one has a cramp or are "tired". Then you know what to do.

But if the OW diver or the OW diver and his/her equally trained and experienced buddy:
1. come upon a non responsive diver at depth,
2. a panicked diver at the surface or underwater,
3. a grossly overweighted diver whose BC has failed and needs assistance surfacing and staying positive at the surface until they drop or are assisted in dropping lead, or
4. a diver that needs to towed to shore and their gear removed to facilitate a fast exit from the water they are SOL.


Because the newer divers are thought to be incapable of learning these very basic techniques to deal with such problems. At least until they have been fleeced for more money for "adventure dives" and a Rescue class. A class that by the way many never take because they have been trained to rely on a DM, AI, Guide, or Instructor.

So which is worse. An experienced diver being honest about not helping someone. OR a new diver being denied the skills and knowledge to help the people more likely to need assistance on a more frequent basis?

How do DIR divers reconcile or view this? When members who profess to abide by team principles stand by or assist those who do not. Or who knowingly assist in putting divers in the water who are incapable of planning the most basic of dives on ther own?

How can anyone who will not give new divers the tools to even try to help a fellow diver throw stones? Or teach for an agency that denies new divers these skills?

Jim, are you asking a question about GUE specifically here? I am sorry, I re-read your post several times and I am not sure if it is directed towards GUE or myself or everyone else.

Best,

Guy
 
You have been diving with the wrong people. Choosing who you dive with is part of preventing the problem to start with.

Guy, you are spot-on and 100% correct, I have been diving with the wrong people.
And I assure you I did not see any of it coming and to me what happened was absolutely unpredictable.

I feel that John Chatterton was proposing a mindset and his solution to potential issues like mine. Be responsible for yourself, rely only on yourself, not on others. Expect your buddies to do the same and accept no excuses.

Oliver
 
Guy, you are spot-on and 100% correct, I have been diving with the wrong people.
And I assure you I did not see any of it coming and to me what happened was absolutely unpredictable.

I feel that John Chatterton was proposing a mindset and his solution to potential issues like mine. Be responsible for yourself, rely only on yourself, not on others. Expect your buddies to do the same and accept no excuses.

Oliver

Oliver, I offer you another alternative: one that has an exemplary record of safety and accomplishment and one that permits you to participate in research, exploration, and conservation efforts around the globe with like minded individuals. Feel free to email me at gs@gue.com or just spend some time on the GUE website at Welcome | Global Underwater Explorers. Good luck and safe diving.

Best,

Guy
 
I know one thing from reading this. When I get technical training it is going to be GUE!

"We will plan our dive with enough gas, training and experience to get each other to the surface alive if catastrophe strikes"

versus

"I will breathe every molecule of my own gas and stare at you while you die, and fight for you to die if necessary."

Really?
 
I know one thing from reading this. When I get technical training it is going to be GUE!

"We will plan our dive with enough gas, training and experience to get each other to the surface alive if catastrophe strikes"

versus

"I will breathe every molecule of my own gas and stare at you while you die, and fight for you to die if necessary."

Really?


I forgot one thing that you are pretty much alone on.... a catastrophic P-valve failure....:)
 
Howard, are you saying that when as an instructor he writes an article for divers to read, he writes with emphasis the opposite of what he actually means, just to get people to think?

Yes... He actually wanted people to think... Amazing huh?



The emphasis isn't on DIR or GUE or Buddies, the article is about taking responsibility for oneself.

The article was about why he was diving on the Doria alone or dare I use the term, "Solo Diving"...

If some random person (not my buddy, but someone else) swims up to me inside a wreck (while I'm diving by myself), and if the choice is to help the random guy who is in trouble who isn't my buddy, or save myself, I'm going to save myself... sorry. And... anyone who says otherwise in a life and death situation is a liar.

If my plan was a solo dive, and I have to rescue someone else, what else should I do?

If my plan is a team dive, then survival of the team is in the plan. This isn't freaking rocket surgery.

It seems clear that too many people on ScubaBoard read way too deeply into an article to share these sensitive topics with them, and that some people need to unbunch their undies from their butts.

Some of these responses are quite hysterical though... So carry on with the mayhem. lol
 
Howard, please tell me how you square the following, from your "buddy's" article with what you have just written:

...I train divers to share air and buddy breathe, but these are not practical skills....These are also exercises to prove to divers that they never want to involve a buddy in a gas supply emergency....

....I am willing to help any diver manage a problem, buddy or not, however supplying gas to another diver, especially on the bottom, is unnecessary and incredibly dangerous for both parties. My secondary regulator is there for me, not you! If you try to take it from me, I will fight you for it, and I will win. That is my plan. There is no reason in the world for a deep diver to need gas from me on the bottom, much less jump me. Breathe your own damn gas, any gas, even the wrong gas, and return to the surface as quickly and safely as possible. I will help you if I can, but is it fair for one diver to expect another to save him/her, as part of the plan? (emphasis added)


Howard, those aren't my words. You wrote
I AM John's dive buddy, and we DO dive as a team. If I came up to John and I was really in trouble, would he let me die? No..

John's words are written to make people think.

Well, please, what am I (and especially others who are new(ish) to this sport) supposed to think other than -- "Every diver rely on what you have and don't expect your "buddy" to give you gas should you find yourself without some."

NOBODY, is saying a diver should rely on someone else in the first place-- but some of us certainly are saying a diver should reasonbly rely on one's buddy if necessary. YOUR "buddy" seems to have written, no one should rely on me even IF necessary. Is that the message YOU want to send to the public?
 
So which is worse. An experienced diver being honest about not helping someone. OR a new diver being denied the skills and knowledge to help the people more likely to need assistance on a more frequent basis?

How do DIR divers reconcile or view this? When members who profess to abide by team principles stand by or assist those who do not. Or who knowingly assist in putting divers in the water who are incapable of planning the most basic of dives on ther own?

I will (off and on) dive with divers who are either not trained like me, or have almost no skills at all. We aren't a "team" and I don't pretend to be. That said, like an instructor or class situation, if I have taken a novice diving I have an obligation to help them to the best of my ability. And there are ways to do that without becoming a 2nd victim yourself. Part of that involves not getting or allowing the novice get in over their head. Shallow, no current etc etc.

I would not take the unskilled tech diving, I wouldn't even get on the same boat. If you are a "every diver for himself" kind of person I don't want to be around you while your alive and I don't want to be around when bad things happen either. I don't want to talk to your next of kin, nor the police, nor the CG.

At least if bad things happen to my team, assuming for discussion purposes that 2 or 3 sets of eyes all make the same mistake in planning and execution, at least they are like-minded friends. If I have to break bad news to my friend's next of kin, I damn well better be able to look them in the eye and say I did every thing I could for their loved one. Since some of the people here are saying they would "save themselves" at my expense, I will never dive with them. I probably would avoid having beer with them too. Life's short, why should I surround myself with selfish people?

Sadly, the reality is that most of the article (and this discussion) is blowing smoke up people's back sides for trolling purposes.
 
I don't think anyone questions taking responsibility for one's self. That is the essence of every dive plan. The issue is, should there also be, in that dive plan, being prepared to assist if something goes wrong. Not forced to assist, but prepared, ready and able, and with sufficient gas, to assist? In other words, do you plan for mutual survival in an emergency, or do you plan that someone must die in an emergency?

If the article is based on the assumption that you are a true solo diver, and plan accordingly, and at the very end of the dive you are surprised by an unknown diver who needs help (that scenario actually happening on a carefully planned technical dive seems a pretty unlikely) then you might might indeed face a tough choice. Still, if you had planned some safety cushion in your pwn gas management, there ought to be some way to offer assistance, to some degree.

However, the article presumed a group of divers known to each other, doing a deep and risky dive, on the same boat, at the same time, at the same site. To plan for failure in that circumstance seems just deeply wrong to me.

Even if you are of the belief that two divers who jump off the same boat and dive the same site at the same time are "two solo divers" instead of "buddies" then that still leaves some things for me to ask:

If the other solo diver had an emergency and came to you for assistance while you still had enough gas to get both of you to the surface, would you abort your "solo" dive and assist? I have to assume the answer is yes, regardless of how much individual gratification you seek from your own solo dive. Otherwise, something is deeply wrong with the philosophy. But, then, are not a "buddy system" diver after all, at least for part of the dive? If so, just exactly when in the dive do you convert from an "I will assist" diver to a "you will die" or "I will kill you if you seek gas" diver. Is this noted clearly on the dive plan, and written on your slates? Do you monitor each other's gas pressures to know when you reach the point of no assistance from the other? If I were with you, I would like to know, because that is the point at which I would surface.

If you know the other diver is going in the water with you, because you came on the same boat, dive the same site, and entered the water at the same time, and you had not planned for gas sharing in an emergency, and you had to watch them die, how would you feel? If you are OK with it, then something is deeply wrong with the philosophy. Call me a wimp product of the nanny-state, I guess.

I do not think this is "mayhem". The article serves up this result, plain and simple, as not only the inevitable outcome, but one you are forced to fight for due to your own lack of gas.

I know GUE preaches and plans "rock bottom" management so that, even at the end of the dive, there is enough gas to get you and your team-mate (let's not use that oh-so-wimpy and "rec" word "buddy") to the surface. When GUE has its record, which needs no introduction, of worldwide exploration and discovery in the most extreme conditions, with the built-in safety and redudancy of the team's gas managment preserved, what exactly is the point of the everyone for him or herself philosophy?

I just don't see it. Why would you plan for one person's possible death instead of mutual survival?
 
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