Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

[MXGratefulDiver]

Just to make sure I understand the consequences in the context of the thread. Does this mean, by your training standards, that the other team members will risk their lives in order so bail out another team member. At every stage of the dive? Till the very end?

If that's not the case then you would have to agree, that it will still "be every man for himself" in the end.

Oliver

Those aren't the only alternatives. Guy's way radically reduces the potential to find yourself at that point in the first place. If all protocols are followed, you'll have called the dive long before it gets to that.

What it boils down to is the difference between proactive diving and reactive diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

Those aren't the only alternatives. Guy's way radically reduces the potential to find yourself at that point in the first place. If all protocols are followed, you'll have called the dive long before it gets to that.

What it boils down to is the difference between proactive diving and reactive diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Having backup brains does that.

 

[Colliam7]

I found the above mentioned route and just had to try it. I had ZERO idea of grade but it looked do-able. Horizontal breaks on a Vertical wall about 85' in height. I geared up and set off. First Cam went in easy, nice and solid, back on to the breaks and I ascend smoothly but notice zero gear placement options. I continue and the breaks get worse, sloping towards me, meaning I have to rely on friction and some funky footwork for ascent. last Break, 5' from the top no gear for 70'. Slack rope. No use in having it tight as I would "Deck Out" due to no gear. I realised I would probably be paralysed at the least from such a fall on to the boulders below. Utterly ****ting bricks now, I force myself to Calm and look for a gear placement, I get one but on testing it, it comes away. I force it back in and clip in the rope, knowing right away that if I fall I am really in the @#it.

Oooh, this does brings back memories. I can readily relate to your situation and the emotions.

Something looks very doable from the ground, and you even sit there on the ground and tell your buddy how and where you will place gear. But, it isn't at all what it seemed to be, once you are on it. The last piece of good pro is way below you, so having a belayer, other than someone to report the accident, or try in vain to suggest an alternate route from the vantage point of the ground, isn't doing you any good. Making that last move to the top, because you really have no other alternative (other than to freeze in place) - the downclimb would be far worse than a dynamic move over the last few feet. . . . . And, drinking, heavily, afterward. In hindsight, I will say, 'Good times.' But, in the moment I said other things.

 

[GShockey]

Just to make sure I understand the consequences in the context of the thread. Does this mean, by your training standards, that the other team members will risk their lives in order so bail out another team member. At every stage of the dive? Till the very end?

If that's not the case then you would have to agree, that it will still "be every man for himself" in the end.

Oliver

I think I can best answer your question by saying that in properly planned dives with well trained individuals working together, the chances of such an event occurring in the first place are more akin to being struck by lightning than it being a run of the mill occurrence. Your question is similar to asking me when I quit beating my dog... It presupposes I did it to start with and any answer is entirely defensive. We can identify, isolate, and contingency plan for pretty much anything that will happen short of getting struck by lightning. We do this and thus insulate ourselves from risk. Of course there is still risk involved but I am not sure if you understand how much this risk may be mitigated by proper training, knowledge, skill and practise while working together in a smoothly functioning team. The level of failures that such a team can work through and resolve while underwater will probably surprise most people and we regularly train and practise with this. Unfortunately, most people's understanding of GUE diving consists of what they read on the internet and this is a shame. Moreover, few of us bother to re-navigate the same ruts in the road time and time again, and this is probably too bad as new people are continually finding these same old discussions as new to them on a regular basis.

So the short answer to your question (I know, too late...) for me is that, yes, I would be there at every stage of the dive for my team mates. But this is not really a huge commitment on my part where you are asking me "would you risk your life" because little of what we would be required to do would require that. I can only think of a couple of circumstances and this is mostly "getting stuck by lightning" The concept of not doing so is very foreign to me. However, please understand that you are attempting to create a simple question and answer that is a vast over simplification of the the realties of GUE divers diving on these kind of dives. The chances of this sort of thing happening while diving within our "system" as it were is very, very small. So it is not a question of looking my buddy in the eye at the beginning of every exploration dive and going "okay, this could be it"... It is much more a case of taking care of business and being prepared for eventualities by choosing to insulate ourselves from risk by proper preparation and planning.

---------- Post added February 14th, 2013 at 12:39 PM ----------

Those aren't the only alternatives. Guy's way radically reduces the potential to find yourself at that point in the first place. If all protocols are followed, you'll have called the dive long before it gets to that.

What it boils down to is the difference between proactive diving and reactive diving ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Ha! I just finished typing and found Bob did it with much more economy of writing.....

---------- Post added February 14th, 2013 at 12:39 PM ----------

Having backup brains does that.

And thanks Richard... I carry my back up brain in my teammates drysuit...

 

[261311]

I don't know WHY this came to mind, but it did. Poor references for the loss

 

[nakatomi]

So the short answer to your question (I know, too late...) for me is that, yes, I would be there at every stage of the dive for my team mates.

This may not apply to you personally, so don't feel offended, but what you describe is the part that I generally do not see happen, as much as I like to see the good in everyone.
Please understand that I do approve of all the training, planning, procedures, protocol and respecting all given limitations. Much, if not most of this, is actually handled in a very similar fashion by most all other organizations.
I carry gas and other redundant equipment for myself and for my team, much in the same way as you teach it.
I consider team diving a great invention. That being said, I believe one needs to understand that at the end of the day, everyone will be responsible for his or her own actions. And as fate might have it, there might not be anyone there or willing to bail you out. And the point is, that's the worst-case mindset one needs to have to build a team upon. Not the other way around.

Oliver

 

[danvolker]

I consider team diving a great invention. That being said, I believe one needs to understand that at the end of the day, everyone will be responsible for his or her own actions. And as fate might have it, there might not be anyone there or willing to bail you out. And the point is, that's the worst-case mindset one needs to have to build a team upon. Not the other way around.

Oliver

Oliver, I do not believe you build a team around weak minded individuals, that will panic or refuse to help should trouble occur. You look for the best people you can find for your team, then begin drilling and doing dives that test the basics of skills, along with the basic mindsets of each team member....You don't begin a serious tech dive with a first time team--you dive in many training dives to establish the actions to be expected from each individual......Planning should prevent the doomsday scenarios spoken of so far, and the time with all the past dives, should eliminate anyone from the team that would ever react as "unwilling" to assist in an emergency.

This is not hypothetical....this is what has been done for tens of thousands of man/hours of diving, by the WKPP and GUE.
If human nature was as you suggest even in well picked teams like the WKPP, then there would have been an entirely different History of accomplishments and safety records.

 

[GShockey]

This may not apply to you personally, so don't feel offended, but what you describe is the part that I generally do not see happen, as much as I like to see the good in everyone.
Please understand that I do approve of all the training, planning, procedures, protocol and respecting all given limitations. Much, if not most of this, is actually handled in a very similar fashion by most all other organizations.
I carry gas and other redundant equipment for myself and for my team, much in the same way as you teach it.
I consider team diving a great invention. That being said, I believe one needs to understand that at the end of the day, everyone will be responsible for his or her own actions. And as fate might have it, there might not be anyone there or willing to bail you out. And the point is, that's the worst-case mindset one needs to have to build a team upon. Not the other way around.

Oliver

Oliver, it does not just not apply to me, it is something that does not apply to any of the GUE divers I dive with, or any I know that engage in more complex diving actually. I don't think you have fully appreciated what I wrote above. I am not given to agency bashing as I find it counterproductive and an exercise in negative energy, but unless you understand fully the degree to which GUE emphasizes "training, planning, procedures, protocol, etc", you can not compare apples to oranges.

At no point have I ever stated nor will I state that anyone is ever not responsible for their actions. In fact, I would argue that recognizing that planning, skill and practise are necessary to do these dives with no drama is an exercise in taking personal responsibility for your/my actions. My team mates would insist on nothing else... And I do not accept the notion that "there might not be anyone there or willing to bail you out". This is again, as far from GUE diving and training as you could possibly get and an artificial creation you are using to make your point.

 

[nakatomi]

If human nature was as you suggest even in well picked teams like the WKPP, then there would have been an entirely different History of accomplishments and safety records.

My point is, I never want to find out the hard way where the critical panic level of team members is and I will do absolutely everything I can to make sure I never do.
Vice versa I expect everyone else in the team to do the same thing, very simple.
That's just what it boils down to: Don't ever rely on someone else to save you, do all you can to prevent such a situation in the first place. And yes, by all means, make that prevention a team effort.


---------- Post added February 14th, 2013 at 10:49 PM ----------

And I do not accept the notion that "there might not be anyone there or willing to bail you out". This is again, as far from GUE diving and training as you could possibly get and an artificial creation you are using to make your point.

First of all I don't think our point of views differ all that much.
Regarding the above statement. It is not an artifiical creation as I have been in situations without a team. Take a plain standard silt-out, which will remove your buddies, usually temporarily. But I also had buddies leave me on purpose. So it happens. Fair enough, I'd have to say they were not GUE trained, but I wouldn't bet that would necessarily make much of a difference, other than someone maybe getting a C-card revoked.

Oliver

 

[GShockey]

My point is, I never want to find out the hard way where the critical panic level of team team members is and I will do absolutely everything I can to make sure I never do.
Vice versa I expect everyone else in the team to do the same thing, very simple.
That's just what it boils down to: Don't ever rely on someone else to save you, do all you can to prevent such a situation in the first place. And yes, by all means, make that prevention a team effort.

Oliver

Oliver, for a well trained team, this level you refer to is seldom reached because we resolve the problem far in advance from where it becomes "critical". As Bob mentioned, we engage in proactive prevention. I would encourage you to seek GUE training and you will more fully understand what I am talking about. Remove the problem and you don't need a solution...

---------- Post added February 14th, 2013 at 01:53 PM ----------

First of all I don't think our point of views differ all that much.
Regarding the above statement. It is not an artifiical creation as I have been in situations without a team. Take a plain standard silt-out, which will remove your buddies, usually temporarily. But I also had buddies leave me on purpose. So it happens. Fair enough, I'd have to say they were not GUE trained, but I wouldn't bet that would necessarily make much of a difference, other than someone maybe getting a C-card revoked.

Oliver

You have been diving with the wrong people. Choosing who you dive with is part of preventing the problem to start with. And yes, it would have made a difference...