Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

[gekodivebali]

Thanks for the article John. Nice reading and good food for thoughts. Reminds me of rugby 101: always protect yourself...

 

[Bob DBF]

So they're saying that I should save myself, and if my buddy was dumb enough to run out of gas, then "it sucks to be him"?
flots

If it is your buddy, you both were dumb enough to not plan the dive properly.

If you are Solo diving, you have no responsibility to plan for another divers lack of planning, Given the choices at that point, it would suck for everyone. The choice, at that point, may be one body or two. If you are not ready for the choice stick with NDL, no overhead diving because the choices are easier.

-------------------------------
In addition, we should probably capitalize Buddy to mean our diving partner, and buddy to mean another diver we may know but is not our diving partner or teammember. It could reduce the confusion in the thread.


Bob
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The most important thing to plan when solo diving is to make sure that you are not diving with an idiot. Dsix36

 

[crosshairs]

His response to all of this "commotion" is in his latest blog entry.....I must say, I have more respect every day for this man and we have never even met.....

 

[flots am]

If it is your buddy, you both were dumb enough to not plan the dive properly.

If you are Solo diving, you have no responsibility to plan for another divers lack of planning, Given the choices at that point, it would suck for everyone. The choice, at that point, may be one body or two. If you are not ready for the choice stick with NDL, no overhead diving because the choices are easier.

-------------------------------
In addition, we should probably capitalize Buddy to mean our diving partner, and buddy to mean another diver we may know but is not our diving partner or teammember. It could reduce the confusion in the thread.

Bob
---------------------------------------
The most important thing to plan when solo diving is to make sure that you are not diving with an idiot. Dsix36

I'm a solo diver (even have a card to prove it), however I also plan on never having to make that horrible choice, so I bring along enough gas to rescue a "buddy" who mysteriously appears.

I have no desire to live out the rest of my life knowing that my refusal to carry an extra 30cu ft or whatever meant that I had to decide to abandon someone, even if they aren't my "buddy".

flots.

 

[BDSC]

or if it was just poor bouyancy control and lack of trim-----

Dan, do you really believe that with the advanced diving Chatterton was doing at that time he had not yet gotten his buoyancy and trim dialed in by that point? Has any of the top GUE guys done a similar penetration dive on the Doria and have some video to show us how much clearer conditions would be?

 

[drrich2]

His response to all of this "commotion" is in his latest blog entry.....

Since you pointed it out I went to have a look. Reading it, I was struck with the irony of how it reads, in terms of what offended him and how he's written the post, which speaks generally about the impact of the Internet on the scuba hobby, and references these Scuba Board threads a good deal. Dissecting out a bit of his blog post:

1.) He claims a small minority of divers who understood the power of the internet thought they could control the narrative to their advantage, & set about hijacking the forums for themselves. They developed several techniques to hijack & control what's said, to bring the narrative back to themselves for their own prestige and profit.

Profit how? Yes, most any community will adopt some philosophical views and sometimes dogmas which they may promote and defend. This is especially true in an adventure sport hobby where people sometimes get hurt or killed. If you post on a public forum in a somewhat inflammatory style (e.g.: fighting a desperate diver off your 2'nd stage, which is there for you, not him), you will get some debate. And I don't see his critics here trying to use ScubaBoard (or other forums) to profit themselves.

2.) He claims dog pack techniques are used to attack their targets, with lots & lots & lots of words, often on multiple threads (there are 2 doing on this, I think?), and that they'd attack any offending message, intentionally misstate or alter the intent of the original missive, and the author (him) is no longer in a discussion about the content, but forced to defend numerous false messages now attributed to them.

It's fair to say he's encountered some fairly vigorous opposition to some of his post, and spirited debate. But he also has reputable forum posters supporting his views and defending his character/intent. He claims that instead of talking about ideas, the forums became battlefields where dedicated gangs of internet bullies relentlessly patrol their turf - he was speaking more generally than this current pair of ScubaBoard threads. That said, talking about ideas often involves spirited debate. Seems to me ScubaBoard has a lot of spirited debate.

One point: if you start a thread with an inflammatory post or link, a big debate ensues and you leave the thread fairly early instead of continuing to respond to criticisms, people may start reacting to their interpretations of what they think you said/meant/believe (the results may look comical to you, but may be honest mistakes on their part, not willful slander).

3.) At first got me. He mentions being attacked on this forum by a group of GUE divers led by a fellow Floridian, admits he himself is not really very knowledgeable in the GUE phisosophy, and yet says apparently the topic of responsibility is something that threatens them greatly, and they let him know it. I assume he's referring to his critics on these forum threads, not GUE itself. Took me a bit to reason out that distinction.

Toward the end, he posts that he doesn't believe for a minute that the mainstream dive community accepts or believes anything these bullies post, but they prevent 'us' from using the dive forums to their full potential, and in too many cases the extreme minority is controlling the conversation of the majority.
--------------------------------------------------------
I'm not GUE either. I respect Chatterton's stature as a diver and right to do the dives he does, on the terms he & his buddies (if any) agree to in advance, in the spirit of informed consent, and I do not believe he is some self-centered sociopath caring nothing for others.

That said, I don't see ScubaBoard as the turf for some sort of ideological 'thought police' gang rigidly controlling the dicussions for their own prestige and profit. Reading the threads, I'd say Dan Volker is the fellow Floridian in question. Volker has caught his share of criticism and personal attacks over these discussions! Jim Lapenta has posted some support for Chatterton's stated views, as have others. Nor is anyone preventing he and others from posting 'alternative views' on diving issues.

That said, yes, there are some hot topics in the hobby that lead to spirited debate. Look at the recent monolithic thread debating the issue of how lacking mainstream basic OW training is in the eyes of some (the whole 'local conditions competency as a condition of certification' thing). No lack of spirited debate there! Even some 'unflattering personal speculations' about each other. But nobody seemed excluded from stating their view!

Richard.

P.S.: This is my own speculation. Judging from this writing, I suspect Chatterton is a forthright, plain spoken man accustomed to unapologetically stating his views (which people of recognized great stature can often do without being challenged as much as some might be). Internet forum culture (not just diving) often teaches 'regulars' to be more 'touchy feely' - to think through how their statements will come across, and take care to minimize abrasiveness. I don't think Chatterton is trying to antagonize people; I suspect he doesn't try as hard to avoid it as maybe we're used to?

 

[danvolker]

Dan, do you really believe that with the advanced diving Chatterton was doing at that time he had not yet gotten his buoyancy and trim dialed in by that point? Has any of the top GUE guys done a similar penetration dive on the Doria and have some video to show us how much clearer conditions would be?

This was not me being nasty to chatterton....this was about how all wreck or deep divers actually dove in 1991. There was no real awareness of buoyancy and trim back then as there is today.....You can see an exageration of this of you watch an old Sea Hunt episode....this would be an exageration, and while hollywood, what you are seeing is a diver not concerned about bumping into the bottom or about not reaching a neutral trim.....Prior to BC's, the differences were much more exrtreme, but in the 80's and into the mid-90's, you did not see many wreck divers that were not swimming head up and feet down, even though they had BC's on.

I would be shocked if chatterton was like that today....but we are not talking about today, we are talking about 1991.

I have not heard whether or not the Doria has been dived by any of the GUE's.... What is clear is that GUE's and WKPP divers have done many far more challenging deep wrecks, with no deaths.

---------- Post added February 16th, 2013 at 03:09 PM ----------

Since you pointed it out I went to have a look. Reading it, I was struck with the irony of how it reads, in terms of what offended him and how he's written the post, which speaks generally about the impact of the Internet on the scuba hobby, and references these Scuba Board threads a good deal. Dissecting out a bit of his blog post:

1.) He claims a small minority of divers who understood the power of the internet thought they could control the narrative to their advantage, & set about hijacking the forums for themselves. They developed several techniques to hijack & control what's said, to bring the narrative back to themselves for their own prestige and profit.

Profit how? Yes, most any community will adopt some philosophical views and sometimes dogmas which they may promote and defend. This is especially true in an adventure sport hobby where people sometimes get hurt or killed. If you post on a public forum in a somewhat inflammatory style (e.g.: fighting a desperate diver off your 2'nd stage, which is there for you, not him), you will get some debate. And I don't see his critics here trying to use ScubaBoard (or other forums) to profit themselves.

2.) He claims dog pack techniques are used to attack their targets, with lots & lots & lots of words, often on multiple threads (there are 2 doing on this, I think?), and that they'd attack any offending message, intentionally misstate or alter the intent of the original missive, and the author (him) is no longer in a discussion about the content, but forced to defend numerous false messages now attributed to them.

It's fair to say he's encountered some fairly vigorous opposition to some of his post, and spirited debate. But he also has reputable forum posters supporting his views and defending his character/intent. He claims that instead of talking about ideas, the forums became battlefields where dedicated gangs of internet bullies relentlessly patrol their turf - he was speaking more generally than this current pair of ScubaBoard threads. That said, talking about ideas often involves spirited debate. Seems to me ScubaBoard has a lot of spirited debate.

One point: if you start a thread with an inflammatory post or link, a big debate ensues and you leave the thread fairly early instead of continuing to respond to criticisms, people may start reacting to their interpretations of what they think you said/meant/believe (the results may look comical to you, but may be honest mistakes on their part, not willful slander).

3.) At first got me. He mentions being attacked on this forum by a group of GUE divers led by a fellow Floridian, admits he himself is not really very knowledgeable in the GUE phisosophy, and yet says apparently the topic of responsibility is something that threatens them greatly, and they let him know it. I assume he's referring to his critics on these forum threads, not GUE itself. Took me a bit to reason out that distinction.

Toward the end, he posts that he doesn't believe for a minute that the mainstream dive community accepts or believes anything these bullies post, but they prevent 'us' from using the dive forums to their full potential, and in too many cases the extreme minority is controlling the conversation of the majority.
--------------------------------------------------------
I'm not GUE either. I respect Chatterton's stature as a diver and right to do the dives he does, on the terms he & his buddies (if any) agree to in advance, in the spirit of informed consent, and I do not believe he is some self-centered sociopath caring nothing for others.

That said, I don't see ScubaBoard as the turf for some sort of ideological 'thought police' gang rigidly controlling the dicussions for their own prestige and profit. Reading the threads, I'd say Dan Volker is the fellow Floridian in question. Volker has caught his share of criticism and personal attacks over these discussions! Jim Lapenta has posted some support for Chatterton's stated views, as have others. Nor is anyone preventing he and others from posting 'alternative views' on diving issues.

That said, yes, there are some hot topics in the hobby that lead to spirited debate. Look at the recent monolithic thread debating the issue of how lacking mainstream basic OW training is in the eyes of some (the whole 'local conditions competency as a condition of certification' thing). No lack of spirited debate there! Even some 'unflattering personal speculations' about each other. But nobody seemed excluded from stating their view!

Richard.

P.S.: This is my own speculation. Judging from this writing, I suspect Chatterton is a forthright, plain spoken man accustomed to apologetically stating his views (which people of recognized great stature can often do without being challenged as much as some might be). Internet forum culture (not just diving) often teaches 'regulars' to be more 'touchy feely' - to think through how their statements will come across, and take care to minimize abrasiveness. I don't think Chatterton is trying to antagonize people; I suspect he doesn't try as hard to avoid it as maybe we're used to?

Some great points raised in your post.

My personal feeling on the Chatterton posts, is that while I don't agree at all with Chatterton's thoughts regarding "Every Man for Himself Diving", I think his posts offer a spectacular VALUE to Scubaboard..... Because of the magnitude of the disagreement between the Chatterton view and the DIR view, this created an opportunity for many divers that may never have really thought much about many of these issues, to now consider them far more intently.

 

[BDSC]

.... What is clear is that GUE's and WKPP divers have done many far more challenging deep wrecks, with no deaths.

Probably because they are wearing BP/W's!

 

[dlofting]

Great post Richard. I think you've captured the essence of internet forums quite well. My observation of your posting "style", having read a few of your contibutions, is that you are quite eloquent and choose your words carefully so as to get your point across without inadvertently offending someone. This does take a lot of practice and not everyone is adept at it.....I suspect this includes Mr. Chatterton.

 

[Bob DBF]

I'm a solo diver (even have a card to prove it), however I also plan on never having to make that horrible choice, so I bring along enough gas to rescue a "buddy" who mysteriously appears.

I have no desire to live out the rest of my life knowing that my refusal to carry an extra 30cu ft or whatever meant that I had to decide to abandon someone, even if they aren't my "buddy".

flots.

Then, I assume that you are diving NDL and no overhead, as there would be no way to plan for the gas needed to help a diver with an unknown deco obligation. At least,in that case you could give the other diver all your gas and do a free ascent. It may not save the other diver, but it's not on you.

Point is that if you bring an "extra" 30cuft and are down to 40cuft of backgas the other diver needs 100cuft you would still have an issue.


Bob
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I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.