Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

[HowardE]

How is this hard? You know your stressed SAC rate and you should know your buddy's. You know your depth and time.

Any good dive planning software should let you know whether you have enough or not, or if you're ambitious, you can use tables and a calculator. In either case, it's just math.

flots.

Its not hard. I am quoting the book

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[flots am]

Its not hard. I am quoting the book

So SDI/TDI thinks it's hard?

Maybe instead of my next class fee, I should send them a copy of vPlanner.

flots.

 

[GShockey]

Well, you are going into great length in tellling me that I'm missing something and that my arguments are flawed, but fail to provide any details whatsoever as to what that may be? Other than maybe the fact that I am trying to show a reasonable and safe way to do things in a different manner that you people are, and maybe in light of this special purpose, in a better way?
And yes, I have already studied your agencies pdf about manifold and valve debugging in detail and I am very familiar with the SOP and many other documents.
And again, I am not saying it is not a very good and proper way to do things. I just happen to think that it is not the only good way and certainly not the best way for everyone.



Exactly. And someone else might expect each team member (or the self-reliant diver) to first resolve these problems on his/her own, without darting towards team mates and initiating air-sharing.
Everyone has his own reserves and should use them because that's what they're for.

So if the plan is accordingly set up, there should never be the need to use the buddy for reserves, unless of course, a plan like yours calls for it. And that could have been, and that's possibly also what John Chatterton was trying to tell us, a very stupid plan for his type of dives on the Andrea Doria.

So the question remains, do you think team diving and air-sharing would have been acceptable options during the dive shown in the Andrea Doria video?
And of course in this case it was actually a dive on air...



Sorry, but just because a minority group thinks something is the only proper way to do it, doesn't make it right for everyone, much less a standard. To me it sounds more like wishful thinking...

Oliver

Oliver,

I find it difficult to reconcile your comments above with someone who is familiar with these documents. What you write in your second paragraph shows to me you don't understand our procedure to problem solving at all. What you write is so antithetical to what is in those documents it is like night and day. And I am quite familiar with them as you may find my name on the documents under "editorial".

The rest of what you wrote continues to show a deep misunderstanding of team diving. You seem to have a view point made up based on misconceptions and misunderstandings. I would also guess you have not taken any GUE training. Am I correct in the latter? Many of your questions, etc., are often addressed in our classes and in fact I received an insightful email today from a TDI instructor who is in one of my current fundamentals classes and some of your points are mirrored in that email. Your comments are not new and I could probably put together a document with the '100 most common misconceptions" and note that they are repeated, over and over again. In any case, if you really want to talk about this, feel free to email me or call me. My number is listed on my GUE instructor resume. You will find that I am very open minded and actually pretty easy going.

To your final question, as to whether I think team diving would have been acceptable options during the dive I assume you mean how would it be today for a team of properly trained GUE divers. The short answer is sure. We would require our team mates to have a high level of training, skill and experience but I can think of 10 people I would do a 225' penetration dive into a silty wreck just sitting here and these are friends on speed dial. I am sure I could find more if I thought about it for a while. And I am far from the top of that food chain. I think the significance of this dive is not measured by todays standards though. I think you need to put yourself in 1991 when team diving was not yet relatively mainstream. Nor was mixed gas. By those standards, that dive was significantly more difficult. But accidents on those kind of dives and caves at similar depths, etc was what really helped provide the impetus for GUE to get started. I encourage you to find the video of the diving on the Britannica. These dives were over 400', involving penetration, etc. No mess, no fuss.


Finally, I am not sure what minority group you are referring to: military, firefighters, police, paramedics or astronauts of GUE divers. Taken together this is not just a small group of individuals.... Moreover, you will, I am sure find similarities between these groups and that is the gist of my point really.


best,

Guy

 

[HowardE]

So SDI/TDI thinks it's hard?

Maybe instead of my next class fee, I should send them a copy of vPlanner.

flots.

No. You are reading it in the wrong context

The hard part is saving yourself and not the other guy

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[dumpsterDiver]

No. You are reading it in the wrong context

The hard part is saving yourself and not the other guy

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Howard: You quote the book to support what John says, then you say the book is wrong?

 

[HowardE]

Howard: You quote the book to support what John says, then you say the book is wrong?

No I don't say the book is wrong. Who said that? I said he was twisting the context.

I'm not saying the book is right either. Its just another philosophy. There is no right answer. If you don't know your own answers... then don't make 200 foot dives.

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[BlackPatch]

And I have no requirement to agree with you about your last sentence. If you wish to have a conversation about the importance of standardization and SOP and protocol I am sure we can find many military members, police officers, fireman, paramedics, commercial pilots, and maybe even an astronaut or two that will take part in this discussion.

And since GUE divers don't dive air.....we never go OOA......






I am ex British Infantry.
We are taught to work within a team (You are correct in this statement) and also, Guy, to be able to work independently if needs be, Example, you are separated from your unit under fire. Your ability to fall back on your training to save your own life, because there is no fall back due to separation is what will ,hopefully, keep you alive.
The emphasis in training is on working within a unit, as military objectives cannot be solved by one man, it requires a team effort where everyone is playing their part. However, you are still expected to be able to function independently. E.g: Escape and Evasion training.

I prefer to work in a Team because I have my training, but I have zero issues undertaking Team Tasking as an individual..

 

[flots am]

No. You are reading it in the wrong context

The hard part is saving yourself and not the other guy

So they're saying that I should save myself, and if my buddy was dumb enough to run out of gas, then "it sucks to be him"?

flots

 

[GShockey]

And I have no requirement to agree with you about your last sentence. If you wish to have a conversation about the importance of standardization and SOP and protocol I am sure we can find many military members, police officers, fireman, paramedics, commercial pilots, and maybe even an astronaut or two that will take part in this discussion.

And since GUE divers don't dive air.....we never go OOA......






I am ex British Infantry.
We are taught to work within a team (You are correct in this statement) and also, Guy, to be able to work independently if needs be, Example, you are separated from your unit under fire. Your ability to fall back on your training to save your own life, because there is no fall back due to separation is what will ,hopefully, keep you alive.
The emphasis in training is on working within a unit, as military objectives cannot be solved by one man, it requires a team effort where everyone is playing their part. However, you are still expected to be able to function independently. E.g: Escape and Evasion training.

I prefer to work in a Team because I have my training, but I have zero issues undertaking Team Tasking as an individual..

Every GUE diver participating in a significant dive has the individual skills that are necessary to do that dive but we recognize that we can accomplish much more and accomplish it more safely when working as a team. The individual training you refer to above I would suggest is mirrored by personal precision buoyancy control, trim, propulsion, SMB deployment, gas donation, valve failure resolution, etc., They are all individual skills much like E&E, marksmanship, etc. When you put together a group of individuals together with a similar level of skills, there is a synergy that is created that is greater than the sum of the parts. You mention that military objectives cannot be solved by one man and it requires a team effort where everyone is playing their part and we have simply extended this concept to diving. Not earth shattering or anything like that and if we hadn't done it I am sure someone else would have. It is pretty straightforward I think and that is why it resonates so strongly with me, a former military officer who, like you, understands the concept of the team. I personally find it very easy to explain this to pretty much anyone who has been involved in team sports also. Btw, I see you mention Edmontonius....and ex British Infantry. How did you like Suffield....? I grew up in M hat.

Best,

G

 

[BlackPatch]

Every GUE diver participating in a significant dive has the individual skills that are necessary to do that dive but we recognize that we can accomplish much more and accomplish it more safely when working as a team. The individual training you refer to above I would suggest is mirrored by personal precision buoyancy control, trim, propulsion, SMB deployment, gas donation, valve failure resolution, etc., They are all individual skills much like E&E, marksmanship, etc. When you put together a group of individuals together with a similar level of skills, there is a synergy that is created that is greater than the sum of the parts. You mention that military objectives cannot be solved by one man and it requires a team effort where everyone is playing their part and we have simply extended this concept to diving. Not earth shattering or anything like that and if we hadn't done it I am sure someone else would have. It is pretty straightforward I think and that is why it resonates so strongly with me, a former military officer who, like you, understands the concept of the team. I personally find it very easy to explain this to pretty much anyone who has been involved in team sports also. Btw, I see you mention Edmontonius....and ex British Infantry. How did you like Suffield....? I grew up in M hat.

Best,

G

I have been in Canada two and a half years, met a Canadian Girl, fell in love, they do that to you these Canadian Girls!
Grew up in North Yorkshire. Did my time in 4 Para as a reservist. Jump Qualified.

I believe that the team can achieve much more than the individual. That is why the GUE method appeals.

Sent you a PM Guy.

Let me know Boss.