Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

[dumpsterDiver]

-----remember, back around 1991, bouyancy and trim were not as perfected among cave divers as it was even 6 years later, and was largely unknown (by today's understanding of it) in wreck diving.

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Volker can't get traction with the Rambo line, so he brings in his boys for back up...GI and Bill Mee..... and if that doesn't work, he claims to have invented the internet (or was in buoyancy control)?

 

[GShockey]

Guy, about the manifold and isolator. What makes you think I would not know how a manifold with an isolator works? I dove a D.I.R. setup for years. My thought is, at 200', a full-blown free-flow or major leak will empty your back-gas in a matter of seconds, not minutes. So enough bail-out gas or a buddy is definitely needed, at least in my opinion. That said, a self-sufficient diver might just prefer to dive something else without a manifold and an open isolator.
Speaking of the manifold, that of course (and the isolator) is a single point of failure in itself. Probably not so relevant in open water, but in the context of penetration dives on the Andrea Doria, it might be something to worry about.

Now a word about the air-sharing "fantasies". OOA scenarios are not hypothetical at all, they happen all the time. As you know it is absolutely not uncommon for people to suddenly become "OOA", meaning their regulator stops delivering gas. Of course there will be gas at hand, but that's not the point. The point being, breathing is temporarily not possible. There are of course many possible causes for that to happen and more often than not the cause can be fixed immediately. And since we always plan for a workaround , there will be one. Now I have to admit it has happened to me and actually I even know several GUE tech trained divers that also went "OOA" so it is not hypothetical at all.
But, and this is the point I was making and maybe John was driving at it as well, you don't want your buddy to come to you for gas in situations like this. You want him to avoid these situations in the first place, if they happen, you want him to fix them on his own. If he has problems with any of this, this type of diving is not for him. Oh, and of course not "running out of gas" should be the easiest task for anyone to solve so it's not too much to ask for either.

By the way, did you even look at the video John posted in the blog? Do you think air-sharing is a feasible option in the passages he dove? Do you even think a team of divers going in there is an option?

Just a little word about GUE and DIR, I have absolutely no axe to grind. If that approach works well for you, that's perfectly fine and I can see many good things about it. But maybe you should try to accept that different approaches might just work better for someone else.

Oliver

Oliver, it is your comments such as that above about losing gas that tell me you are missing some very important parts of the equation. And this is why I say I don't think you understand how they work. Using them and understanding them are not the same thing. I am writing on an ipad and I sure don't understand how it works.... This lack of understanding is biasing much of what else you are saying which makes it difficult for me to discuss this with you. You are entering into the conversation with either insufficient knowledge or incorrect knowledge and this makes a conversation difficult. Your comments regarding penetration diving and manifolds further demonstrates a lack of knowledge. I would be happy to continue this conversation with you in a non public forum but much of what I would say is available publicly. I would encourage you to do so if you want to fully understand the topic but if you don't wish to, that is entirely your prerogative. GUE has several excellent documents on manifold failure resolution and operation etc., that are available. Once we are both on the same page I think our conversation will be much more useful. I don't intend to sound condescending at all but the responsibility to understand this rests with you.

In a real OOG situation I fully expect to either go to my team mate or they come to me as appropriate. Our gas planning fully supports this. And no Oliver it is not "common" for people to suddenly go OOG. I have been diving for about 35 years and I have participated in 2 real OOG emergencies that were resolved quickly. Both were non team members who where I happened to be in the water nearby. One was poor planning on their part (not part of our team) and the other was a 2nd stage malfunction on another non team mate. Both issues were resolved without drama. I do not count temporary gas interruptions as OOG because they were not OOG.

A good technical dive is not filled with drama and excitement. Kind of like a good commercial airline flight....

And I have no requirement to agree with you about your last sentence. If you wish to have a conversation about the importance of standardization and SOP and protocol I am sure we can find many military members, police officers, fireman, paramedics, commercial pilots, and maybe even an astronaut or two that will take part in this discussion.

And since GUE divers don't dive air.....we never go OOA......


best,

Guy

 

[danvolker]

Volker can't get traction with the Rambo line, so he brings in his boys for back up...GI and Bill Mee..... and if that doesn't work, he claims to have invented the internet (or was in buoyancy control)?

Dumpster....I know how challenging it is for you to stay on topic, but this is largely about solo diving versus buddy diving, and these 2 guys were my buddies for hundreds of technical dives. I'd say how I respond with my buddies is quite relevant to the issue.


I still see Chatterton as a wanna be Rambo, whether you agree or not I don't care.

I did create the first magazine format website, in 1993 --the South Florida Dive Journal, then on Cybergate, now on sfdj.com Thanks for the plug. Before sfdj, there was Mosaic as the only other player in websites. There was Yahoo, and plenty of documents you could find with searches...and in fact, when you did a yahoo search in 1993, you would actually find the document you were looking for if it had been uploaded by ftp ---rather than the situation today where the search could turn up 20 referral sites that should be illegal...But how about you try to stay on topic ?

 

[nakatomi]

Oliver, it is your comments such as that above about losing gas that tell me you are missing some very important parts of the equation. And this is why I say I don't think you understand how they work. Using them and understanding them are not the same thing. I am writing on an ipad and I sure don't understand how it works.... This lack of understanding is biasing much of what else you are saying which makes it difficult for me to discuss this with you. You are entering into the conversation with either insufficient knowledge or incorrect knowledge and this makes a conversation difficult. Your comments regarding penetration diving and manifolds further demonstrates a lack of knowledge. I would be happy to continue this conversation with you in a non public forum but much of what I would say is available publicly. I would encourage you to do so if you want to fully understand the topic but if you don't wish to, that is entirely your prerogative. GUE has several excellent documents on manifold failure resolution and operation etc., that are available. Once we are both on the same page I think our conversation will be much more useful. I don't intend to sound condescending at all but the responsibility to understand this rests with you.

Well, you are going into great length in tellling me that I'm missing something and that my arguments are flawed, but fail to provide any details whatsoever as to what that may be? Other than maybe the fact that I am trying to show a reasonable and safe way to do things in a different manner that you people are, and maybe in light of this special purpose, in a better way?
And yes, I have already studied your agencies pdf about manifold and valve debugging in detail and I am very familiar with the SOP and many other documents.
And again, I am not saying it is not a very good and proper way to do things. I just happen to think that it is not the only good way and certainly not the best way for everyone.

In a real OOG situation I fully expect to either go to my team mate or they come to me as appropriate. Our gas planning fully supports this.

Exactly. And someone else might expect each team member (or the self-reliant diver) to first resolve these problems on his/her own, without darting towards team mates and initiating air-sharing.
Everyone has his own reserves and should use them because that's what they're for.

So if the plan is accordingly set up, there should never be the need to use the buddy for reserves, unless of course, a plan like yours calls for it. And that could have been, and that's possibly also what John Chatterton was trying to tell us, a very stupid plan for his type of dives on the Andrea Doria.

So the question remains, do you think team diving and air-sharing would have been acceptable options during the dive shown in the Andrea Doria video?
And of course in this case it was actually a dive on air...

And I have no requirement to agree with you about your last sentence. If you wish to have a conversation about the importance of standardization and SOP and protocol I am sure we can find many military members, police officers, fireman, paramedics, commercial pilots, and maybe even an astronaut or two that will take part in this discussion.

Sorry, but just because a minority group thinks something is the only proper way to do it, doesn't make it right for everyone, much less a standard. To me it sounds more like wishful thinking...

Oliver

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Well said. Some of us don't care about DIR, GUE, UTD, etc. methods except the ones I choose to adopt. The others are not compatible with my ideas and style of diving. As well as the resources (meaning dive buddies) I have available when I want to dive. If I had to adhere to them I would not get to do a lot of the dives I do or enjoy them as much as I do. Especially the solo dives.

 

[HowardE]

Excerpts from TDI's Extended Range and Trimix Manual (2012):

Page 52: You should not accept anything but complete perfection in executing the dive plan. No longer are you just bouncing around carefree and casual, knowing that if all else fails, you can just free ascend. Those days are over... if you cannot dive to this level of responsibility, stay in the kiddy pool.
What if your buddy runs out of air? Do you have enough gas to affect a rescue?
This is one HARD question to answer. Unfortunately, there is no right or wrong answer. The question is begged, why did you get in that position in the first place? Yes, there could be some legitimate reason for this happening, but it is absolutely rare.

Page 67 DO NOT jeopardize your own safety in order to help a stricken diver if the situation is beyond reasonable help. In case you haven't figured it out by now, you are in the big league of diving. Risks increase and so does your personal responsibility.

Page 74: What about a "long hose" for the bottom mix cylinders? This simply depends on the dive circumstances such as visibility, current, etc. Some open water ER divers enjoy the longer hoses while others don't really need them....
... Running out of gas is simply not to be tolerated. We must emphasize this to our dive buddies and other that dive with us...

John Chatterton must be a bad dangerous man, and we're all damned to hell I guess?

 

[crosshairs]

Meh, I read the blog and had no problems with his statements ......he states his opinion on how he dives...if you dont like it, dont dive with him.....but I suspect many here would love to dive with him....I know I would , but I doubt he would like hanging around at ~130 feet with me.....and I dont have the training nor the experience to dive to the depths that he does

 

[HowardE]

Meh, I read the blog and had no problems with his statements ......he states his opinion on how he dives...if you dont like it, dont dive with him.....but I suspect many here would love to dive with him....I know I would , but I doubt he would like hanging around at ~130 feet with me.....and I dont have the training nor the experience to dive to the depths that he does

Come on down to Florida and dive with us anytime. Most of our dives are recreational, and within recreational depths. We like diving the wrecks and reefs in South Florida and spearfish and lobster a lot. We frequently dive on South Florida Diving Headquarters' boats.

 

[crosshairs]

Come on down to Florida and dive with us anytime. Most of our dives are recreational, and within recreational depths. We like diving the wrecks and reefs in South Florida and spearfish and lobster a lot. We frequently dive on South Florida Diving Headquarters' boats.

I'm gonna take you up on that when I get some free time this summer...

 

[flots am]

What if your buddy runs out of air? Do you have enough gas to affect a rescue?
This is one HARD question to answer.

How is this hard? You know your stressed SAC rate and you should know your buddy's. You know your depth and time.

Any good dive planning software should let you know whether you have enough or not, or if you're ambitious, you can use tables and a calculator. In either case, it's just math.

flots.