Mr Chattertons Self Reliance Article...

[danvolker]

If you come accross another diver that was not related to your diving plans, was not in your team--someone that suddenly just appears--this is a situation that none of us "plan for"--not DIR's, not GUE's, not Chatterton Styled divers.

In your scenario, had I been on a ndl dive and came to a guy needing 100 cu ft of gas, I would absolutely not mind stripping off my tank and giving it to him, then doing a free ascent and getting a boat to send down more tanks. And remember, I would have a buddy, so I really could just share air with my own buddy in heading to the surface to get the attention of our boat--the boat following our torpedo float/flag.
Now when the guy came up, he would get a pretty serious questioning line as to how in the world such a problem ever became him....

 

[cephasiii]

I would absolutely not mind stripping off my tank and giving it to him, then doing a free ascent and getting a boat to send down more tanks.

Are you referring to a previous post? Because I am really hoping you just didn't say you would give your tank to the diver and then do a free ascent to get more tanks (buddy breathe ring or not). If that's the case, I don't know how to respond to that and you should not be a Divemaster. If you we're referring to a post, please excuse me.

 

[danvolker]

I think one of the things that would be awesome for illustration purposes, would be a pseudo tech diving day demo.... now what I would like most, would be for this to be on the Wreck of the HydroAtlantic, top at 125, bottom at 175....a place where very advanced and non-tech divers frequent, but also a place where tech divers love to visit.....It would have enough extreme element to it, to show case much of the GUE power and grace for a technical environment....the problem would be the GUE team would not want to be doing a tech wreck with many non-tech divers, as this begs the potential for someone being there that is way undertrained for it--and for this to cause an accident, thus being a rule violation in DIR terms.

So the next best this, would be to pick a wreck at around 120...and maybe the Castor would be the ideal wreck...beautiful wreck, great opportunity for tech type exploring penetrations, and with plenty of boats that could service such an event. Ideally, you would also have some Chatterton divers their, though maybe this should be a different day--to allow each "group" fair exposure to other divers, and to to a fair job of showcasing for each....

---------- Post added February 17th, 2013 at 10:02 AM ----------

Are you referring to a previous post? Because I am really hoping you just didn't say you would give your tank to the diver and then do a free ascent to get more tanks (buddy breathe ring or not). If that's the case, I don't know how to respond to that and you should not be a Divemaster. If you we're referring to a post, please excuse me.

What I was trying to do was play the scene out the other poster had begun....whichy we do here on SB often. The fact is, in real life, I dive with a buddy team, so I could donate gas, and so could my buddy....the "actual" way to save this near OOA tech diver in need of 100 cu ft of gas, could never be planned--something like this is never to be considered by a recreational diver as a planning issue....However, it would not be right to let him die ( if he needed 100 cu feet of gas to decompress with, the level of DCS hit would be quite catastrophic if he had to free ascend...so some form of heroics would be needed to prevent a death. Assuming it is only you and a buddy, then you can also assume a 30 or 40 foot stop depth--maybe 50 --the whole scenario is almost impossible, anyway....but from a 30 foot stop, if there is only one buddy team, and the team has no where near 100 cu ft of gas to share , then someone would need to get the boat involved. One could stay with the float line and deep OOA diver, the other could run up the line an get help....

If this was a solo diving scenario, and I was solo diving when I saw this guy, and had plenty of gas myself, because I am a freediver also, it would be a simple matter to give him my tank and to free ascend---he would hang on to my float line, and I would bring the boat back to him with more gas.

In fact, in over 40 years of diving, I have never witnessed anything remotely resembling this, so it is kind of a silly hypothetical...one really unlikely to occur.
The far greater liklihood, would be a recreational diver seeing a bad tech diver that was penetrating a 100 foot wreck, and who stayed in much too long trying for artifacts....now on exiting, they are terrified of the deco obligation they are no where near.

The recreational diver SHOULD be able to get them a line if they don't have one, then either solo or buddy team SHOULD be able to get to the boat, get a tank from the boat back to the diver in trouble. It would be hard to imagine a scenario where a diver would have to give up their own tank and to free ascend...that would be a one in a billion chance, of anything ever calling for it...in other words, even for scubaboard hypotheticals, it would be unlikely...However, the DUTY to help if you can, does exist. The DUTY is not to get yourself killed in the assisting, and in my response to the original hypothetical, this would have been a zero threat problem for me on a no deco dive....

And don't worry, while I have a DM cert, along with being a freediver and tech diver, I do not act as a DM on any boats.

 

[flots am]

Then, I assume that you are diving NDL and no overhead, as there would be no way to plan for the gas needed to help a diver with an unknown deco obligation. At least,in that case you could give the other diver all your gas and do a free ascent. It may not save the other diver, but it's not on you.

Point is that if you bring an "extra" 30cuft and are down to 40cuft of backgas the other diver needs 100cuft you would still have an issue.

I always bring enough for my buddy even if I don't have one, regardless of wheter it's OW or overhead. Also, when solo, I never do any sort of overhead dives. If Mr. 100CuFt showed up on a deco dive, between me and my buddy, we would absolutely have enough for him.

You can either plan to be able handle an OOA diver or plan to not be able to. Either way it's a decision.

flots.

---------- Post added February 17th, 2013 at 09:47 AM ----------

Are you referring to a previous post? Because I am really hoping you just didn't say you would give your tank to the diver and then do a free ascent to get more tanks (buddy breathe ring or not). If that's the case, I don't know how to respond to that and you should not be a Divemaster. If you we're referring to a post, please excuse me.

On a no-deco dive? Why not?

I'd do it. The surface is "up" and has all the air I need.

flots.

 

[Bob DBF]

If you come accross another diver that was not related to your diving plans, was not in your team--someone that suddenly just appears--this is a situation that none of us "plan for"--not DIR's, not GUE's, not Chatterton Styled divers.

That is the point I, so ineloquently, tried to make. Regardless of how much you might want to help another diver, there is no way to plan for his gas needs.

In your scenario, had I been on a ndl dive and came to a guy needing 100 cu ft of gas, I would absolutely not mind stripping off my tank and giving it to him, then doing a free ascent and getting a boat to send down more tanks. And remember, I would have a buddy, so I really could just share air with my own buddy in heading to the surface to get the attention of our boat--the boat following our torpedo float/flag.
Now when the guy came up, he would get a pretty serious questioning line as to how in the world such a problem ever became him....

Granted a poor hypothetical and easily solved, but planning that 30cuft extra gas will solve all problems is a poor solution.

That was the easy question, the harder one would be if you were Solo, under a deco obligation which was extended because of a - fill in the blank - problem and had enough gas to complete the dive and you ran into the same knucklehead. The choices are much easier at the keyboard than they are at depth. I hope no one here has to make that choice, and other styles of diving reduce this issue, but I heard that discussing the dive plan and agreeing to it was part of diving. If you don't like the plan, don't do the dive.

Chatterton's article described the "tech" diving of my youth (before there was "tech diving") and I subcribed, today there are other styles of diving that give more options. If I were to take up tech diving again, I would probably opt for some type of team diving. This is not to say that type of diving is wrong, it just would not be my choice.


Bob
-----------------------------------------------
I may be old, but I'm not dead yet.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Then, I assume that you are diving NDL and no overhead, as there would be no way to plan for the gas needed to help a diver with an unknown deco obligation. At least,in that case you could give the other diver all your gas and do a free ascent. It may not save the other diver, but it's not on you.

Ah, this is technically correct, but misses the point. First off, if you're talking about your dive buddy, why would you not know how much gas he would need? You should have factored that into your dive plan. And you should have brought sufficient reserves to deal with a worst-case emergency. Now, if you're encountering someone you don't know, then there's no way you can know what their circumstances are ... and there's no way you could plan to deal with that with any certainty ... but you would STILL know how much gas you have in reserve, and you would base your actions on that. A refusal to help someone based on not knowing their circumstances might be a decision some would make ... but not me. I'd still help to within the limits of the contingencies I had prepared for ... and that might well be adequate to get the diver out of the overhead, or to another diver, or to a depth where they could safely deploy a deco bottle. In any case, I would want to try.

Point is that if you bring an "extra" 30cuft and are down to 40cuft of backgas the other diver needs 100cuft you would still have an issue.

You can't plan contingencies for everything. But if you're going to Doria depths you're bringing more than 30 cf reserve ... you're bringing enough to cover the loss of one tank ... whether that's one of your back gas cylinders or a deco bottle. And if someone needed more than I have, they're still going to get what I can spare. It may be the difference between bent and dead. Bent is usually fixable. And in my case I would push my limits to the point of potentially bending myself if it meant saving someone else's life. I'd rather share a chamber ride than attend a funeral. But that's me ... and if I've planned my dive properly it should never come to the point of having to make that decision anyway.

But all of that misses the point that I think Chatterton was making ... which is that the first thing you have to assess is the mindset of the person needing the help. If they're in a state of panic, I'm not going near them ... whether they're at 200 feet or 20. If they approach me calmly ... and if they're tech diving the chances are they're sufficiently trained and experienced to know how to deal with an emergency ... I'm going to do whatever I can, short of putting myself in danger of becoming a fatality, to help them out.

On any dive ... but particularly on a deep technical dive ... you should know what resources you have, what you need, and what you can afford to share with someone in trouble. If you don't, then you've not planned your dive properly and you're doing what's generally known as a "trust me" dive. Tech divers tend to avoid those. Contingency planning and fluency in handling an emergency are a significant part of technical training ... regardless of which agency you train with. Fighting off or swimming away from someone in trouble is a sign that you either didn't train properly or that you ignored your training when preparing for the dive.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[billgraham]

This is actually hilarious -- GUE v. NE wreck diving circa 1991. I didn't start wreck diving in the NE until a few years later, but you cannot understand what it is like to do these dives if you haven't tried it. I haven't dove the Doria myself (yet) but I have done the Carolina, Coimbra, U-boats etc. and from the first time I stepped on a dive boat here, it was obvious that these were SOLO dives. The older guys would tell me about places to go look at, and the methodology then was "progressive penetration". Very few people dove with buddies, and I think that is still true for a lot of people.

I didn't really start diving in teams until I began cave diving some time later. I think the reaction to John's article is a result of not understanding the environment and the way diving developed in the Northeast. It was damned clear to me from the first time I jumped off a dive boat here that NO ONE was coming to help me. These days I enjoy wreck diving with a buddy but I'm still just as happy doing it alone.

 

[danvolker]

This is actually hilarious -- GUE v. NE wreck diving circa 1991. I didn't start wreck diving in the NE until a few years later, but you cannot understand what it is like to do these dives if you haven't tried it. I haven't dove the Doria myself (yet) but I have done the Carolina, Coimbra, U-boats etc. and from the first time I stepped on a dive boat here, it was obvious that these were SOLO dives. The older guys would tell me about places to go look at, and the methodology then was "progressive penetration". Very few people dove with buddies, and I think that is still true for a lot of people.

I didn't really start diving in teams until I began cave diving some time later. I think the reaction to John's article is a result of not understanding the environment and the way diving developed in the Northeast. It was damned clear to me from the first time I jumped off a dive boat here that NO ONE was coming to help me. These days I enjoy wreck diving with a buddy but I'm still just as happy doing it alone.

Not quite sure what the big difference is.... In Florida, we have some spectacular wrecks off of Fort Pierce where depths can be to 250....and vis can be 10 feet or 2 feet less---is rarely over 25 to 35 feet. Temperatures in winter can easily be 50 degrees. So where is the bif disconnect?

 

[Bob DBF]

Ah, this is technically correct, but misses the point. First off, if you're talking about your dive buddy, why would you not know how much gas he would need?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Somehow, when discussing a Solo dive, this mythical buddy keeps coming up.

Other than that, we are in agreement.


Bob
------------------------
(The other Bob)

 

[billgraham]

Not quite sure what the big difference is.... In Florida, we have some spectacular wrecks off of Fort Pierce where depths can be to 250....and vis can be 10 feet or 2 feet less---is rarely over 25 to 35 feet. Temperatures in winter can easily be 50 degrees. So where is the bif disconnect?

Just a diving cultural difference. Wreck diving was solo diving, buddies were the exception rather than the rule.