Minimalist versus "Train as you Fight" . . . Which way do you go?

[Bob DBF]

Thalassamania raised a disturbing thought, mindless reliance on standard practiced responses may be fatal.

How many tank valves have been closed by mindless reliance on standard practiced response, with never a thought to determining the valves actual position.

Simply thinking through everything is completely unacceptable also, or we could all learn to be divers just by reading books.

As a matter of fact myself and many others during the '50's and '60's learned to dive that exact way. And I will add the formal training given now would not prepare it's graduate to dive the basic gear we were diving then. I would also say "just reading books" and thinking through your actions is good advice to anyone including divers.

The truth is usually somewhere nearer the middle. So is it "deftly applying practiced routines to the problem at hand while assessing the results with a functional brain"?

Your answer is paraphrasing Thal's solution so I would say the truth is not so near the middle. Practiced routines are good to have but it is more important to analyze the problem and decide what routines to use and in what order.

I became entangled while free diving, first try was using my hands to free myself, it helped but no deal. Next was to use my knife but as I was assessing the situation I decided to drop the weight belt first and use the knife last. 30# of buoyancy broke me free, had the knife been used I could have been found as just another dead Abalone diver with his weight belt on. All the routines are there but you have use your presence of mind to understand the problem, form a solution and use the proper routines to resolve the problem.


Bob
-------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

"the future is uncertain and the end is always near"
Jim Morrison

 

[Thalassamania]

Bob, as an example of the kind of issue that raises its ugly head: more than a few divers' bodies have been found, entangled in this and that, with a knife/scissor/cutter lying on the bottom below and their weightbelt in place, so you clearly made the right decision ... after all, you're here! But the "thing" that was lacking was a lanyard and the practice of securing the lanyard about the wrist before use and the "think" that was lacking was to release the weightbelt if you lost the knife.

 

[lowviz]

How many tank valves have been closed by mindless reliance on standard practiced response, with never a thought to determining the valves actual position.............

Either this supports my position or I am completely clueless as to your post.

....//...........As a matter of fact myself and many others during the '50's and '60's learned to dive that exact way. And I will add the formal training given now would not prepare it's graduate to dive the basic gear we were diving then. I would also say "just reading books" and thinking through your actions is good advice to anyone including divers.................//...

Are you serious??? Great! Then stop telling us how you guys actually had to learn to swim, fend for yourself, etc, "back in the day".

.......//.......Your answer is paraphrasing Thal's solution so I would say the truth is not so near the middle. Practiced routines are good to have but it is more important to analyze the problem and decide what routines to use and in what order................//.........

Yes, I did attempt to paraphrase. Not backing off on this one, the routines have to be just as practiced as the thinking has to be accurate as to which routine to apply. Sounds like the middle to me. Something very much like choosing which high-quality tool to use for the job in an emergency. --> Highest-quality tools and the very best choice of tools at hand. Choice, not knee-jerk practiced response "B" to stimulus "A".

...................//.............I became entangled while free diving, first try was using my hands to free myself, it helped but no deal. Next was to use my knife but as I was assessing the situation I decided to drop the weight belt first and use the knife last. 30# of buoyancy broke me free, had the knife been used I could have been found as just another dead Abalone diver with his weight belt on. All the routines are there but you have use your presence of mind to understand the problem, form a solution and use the proper routines to resolve the problem.................//...........

I got into SCUBA after I damn near died sky diving, I still have the spinal compressional fractures to prove it. Yes, quick appropriate thinking and presence of mind are key. But then, I also damn near died SCUBA diving, learned just how fast and big things can go wrong.

Unfortunately, this does not make me at all exceptional in this community. One of the things that I love about SCUBA is the slightly more time I have to weigh my choices before being forced to choose correctly or die.

Which leads to exactly what I am saying. Practiced "brainless, muscle memory" routines that are efficiently chosen, applied, and their results graded by your own brain. Where is the disconnect???

............"the future is uncertain and the end is always near"..........Jim Morrison

I've always been pro-active not reactive. I prefer Break on Through (To the Other Side) Lyrics Meaning - The Doors Song Meanings

But I will give you full credit for quoting somebody that actually thought about his own existence and his place in this world...

You may find this quite distasteful, but I think that we fundamentally agree.

 

[scubafanatic]

...staying within the recreational diving/single tank universe (no ice/wreck penetration/cave) I dive the same gear all the time, the only differences would be carrying 1 versus 2 lights, or using my 'dual wing' singles rig versus my 'single wing' singles rig, and my exposure protection/weighting, and swapping between my reg sets configured with dual LP inflator hoses (dual wing ready) versus my reg sets configured with only a single LP inflator hose (single wing ready).

 

[hardtime]

Train how you fight, fight how you train! K.I.S.S. same rig for every dive that way you know everything about it. You know your limits in your gear and you know your gears limits.

Lights will change slightly due to the obvious but when they are needed it is the same ones in the same places every time (but I always have a small light with me regardless). You don't run around wearing your NVG's during the day.......

 

[Tienuts]

While you would blame the flooding on using different gear, I could also chalk it up to reacting without thinking. If I was really harsh, I would toss out the old "you are using gear to replace skill " slogan.

Reaction without thinking is called muscle memory. The point was my muscle memory was still that of OC, and not CCR. By sticking with CCR, and sticking with one particular skill set, the next time i have to fall back on muscle memory, it will be the appropriate response. If I were really harsh, I'd tell you to get out to Florida to examine my "skill" firsthand.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

Reaction without thinking is called muscle memory, jackass. The point was my muscle memory was still that of OC, and not CCR. By sticking with CCR, and sticking with one particular skill set, the next time i have to fall back on muscle memory, it will be the appropriate response. If I were really harsh, I'd tell you to get your old ass out to Florida to examine my "skill" firsthand.

Reaction without thinking can also lead to tragic / fatal situations when applied in the wrong situation, as you so well described. Sometimes its a fine line where reacting in a split second will save your life (think a police officer or solder in a combat situation). Other times it is totally inappropriate and risky (driving on ice or sharing air), in these cases a reasonable reaction speed with some thought is a safer plan and prevents sequential issues from taking a minor event to something much more serious.

If your safety relies on diving the exact same gear config exactly the same, every time regardless of environment then I doubt that examining your skill would be worthwhile. I would hope someone diving CCR would have a bit more confidence in themselves.

 

[diveprof]

Stop, Think, Act. Simple concepts, but this works wonders in the underwater world. Your first response may not be the best.

 

[EastTNDiver]

No, I don't dive the same rig in all environments. Truth is, I hate being loaded down with gear, but do it to do the types of dives I want to do. But, when my son and I go to the Caribbean (Roatan) this weekend, you can bet your bottom dollar there will not be a drysuit in the picture...nor will there be a spare inflator hose still on my first stage due to no drysuit...nor will there be a reel/spool...no can light...blah blah blah...but, I will be in control of my dive, and I will have no issues due to a configuration that is different from what I use for other types of diving. There's a certain feeling of freedom splashing in near 90 degree Caribbean water wearing just swim trunks and only the basic rig needed to safely perform a dive.

 

[tomfcrist]

I tailor my gear to the dive i am doing....and if you think that is being UNprepared think about this: how hard would you be laughing seeing a diver on a daytime 30ft reef dive in the florida keys wearing doubles, carryin a can light, 2 backups, a spare mask, 2 lift bags, 3 reels, 3 knifes and wearing a drysuit? Come on guys, its common sense.