LP Warranty on AquaLung, SP, Apex etc.

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Well, I would think that they would probably lose their dealership in that line mysteriously, and then lose their livelihood, unless they pick up another line real quick, or already have a few top lines. Plus, not to mention the fact that its like David fighting GOliath (having to compete with the lawyers from a major company)...
I think it would be lambs to the slaughter...
 
jonnythan:
I can understand Larry's unwillingness to sue anybody, but I'm really kinda surprised no one has.

Am I missing something? Seems to me like it would be an open and shut case.

Probably not... you're dealing with a case that probably has 100,000 pages of transcripts and evidence... squashed down to a paragraph on a web page and a scuba board...

There is obviously more to the story... or as you pointed out... it would have been done.
 
jonnythan:
I can understand Larry's unwillingness to sue anybody, but I'm really kinda surprised no one has.

Am I missing something? Seems to me like it would be an open and shut case.

Its:

1. Expensive.
2. You have to prove your harm and damages.

This kind of lawsuit is usually undertaken by the attorney general of one or more states, or the FTC, suing on behalf of the public. The reason is that the individual damages (to a given consumer) are relatively small (consider that the "gouging" per customer might be only a couple hundred bucks) and the lawsuit's cost will be in the hundreds of thousands or millions.

The problem is that those folks have a finite number of lawyers and a finite budget.

The scuba biz HAS gotten the FTC's attention before - see the "Scuba Retailer's Association Antitrust" topic on google (just punch it in!)

Will it again?

One can only hope.

There are loopholes in anti-trust law, but they're nowhere near well-defined. None of them are, IMHO, ethical - but some are legal - at least some of the time. What Nine West was doing appeared to fit the "loophole" that SP and others in the dive industry are using, but they got hammered anyway.

Expecting the dealers to revolt when many if not most of them actually like the existing "protectionism" is probably unreasonable. But what is reasonable is for consumers to choose their dealers with this sort of action - or inaction - in mind.
 
Genesis:
A lot is wrong with it Fire.

Their "offer", at $18/share, is below the current trading price. It is thus on its face insufficient.

If Helen and company did not want the responsibility of a duty to public shareholders, they should have never sold shares to the public.

Genesis - while I agree this may not be in the direct interest of shareholders, at the time they made their bid, the stock was at $17. It jumped $2 on this news.

Now, I don't understand the traders that bid up a stock over the $18 value when the bid specifically said it was non-binding and that the company would not entertain other offers.

I think they could get into trouble if they truly did not accept a valid 3rd party bid over the $18 bid price - but they are also unlikely to get one...
 
LUBOLD8431:
Well, I would think that they would probably lose their dealership in that line mysteriously...

From what I've heard, there is no mystery when it happens...
 
can some of you guys look at this new thread
http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?p=519393#post519393
and post some examples. you really have my mind going on this.

I have 2 more weeks before i start work and go to the university of texas which has a very good LAw school. I want to see what some of the lawyers there say.

what else to do with my last weeks of freedom?
 
gj62:
Genesis - while I agree this may not be in the direct interest of shareholders, at the time they made their bid, the stock was at $17. It jumped $2 on this news.

Now, I don't understand the traders that bid up a stock over the $18 value when the bid specifically said it was non-binding and that the company would not entertain other offers.

I think they could get into trouble if they truly did not accept a valid 3rd party bid over the $18 bid price - but they are also unlikely to get one...

Doesn't matter at this point if they get one, if a few large shareholders decide to get nasty about this. The argument they could make is that the statement of refusal to consider other bids was designed to damage the market value of the company and hold its price artificially low so the inside transaction could take place.

That sort of thing can get ugly FAST if some institutional shareholder decides to play nasty, or if some landshark specializing in securities fraud smells blood. BTW, there are rumors floating around on message boards that shareholders are organizing already in an attempt to mount a legal challenge..... Who knows what kind of legs that has.

Inside dealing to board members is one of those things that can get you in big trouble if the transaction you propose doesn't pass the "sniff test." The test is whether an outside party, with no relationship, would be able to do the same deal. If not, then you've got a problem.

The whole concept of "friends and family" goes straight out the window when you're running a public firm. A LOT of what you'd like to do is simply off-limits in a public company, from disclosures you'd like to make to "best friends" (but not anyone else!) to private sales and purchases of various things. Anything is subject to question at any time by any of the shareholders in a corporation - and if you can't defend your actions as reasonably in the best interest of the shareholders in general, rather than who you dealt the inside straight to, you're gonna get cooked.

A bald statement that you won't listen to any other offers and this is a "take it or leave it", from inside the board, is IMHO pretty insane coming from a public company, as it verifies that you were dealing off the bottom of the deck.

I've been around plenty of public and private corporations in my years. That press release raised my eyebrows when I saw it.... and not much does these days.

BTW, the company is not doing all that well, from my read of the financials...

"The maker of outboard motors, canoes and tents earned $5.4 million on sales of $315 million in fiscal 2003 compared to $7.9 million and $343 million the previous year."

They are only earning 1.7% for '03, .vs. 2.3% in '03. That's a 25% decrease in earnings margin, and a ~10% decline in operating revenues.

Looking at their balance sheets their SG&A is outrageous, and they are spending basically nothing (1%ish of revenues) on R&D.

That's pathetic, and says they've got nothing in the pipe. That be how you get your lunch eaten!

Even worse, they're revenues are down sequentially from 01-03 for both years; this is not good. They also took a big charge in '02.

Finally, the EU did look into their competition policies in Europe. They took no action - but that was based on today's posture. If they start playing games with their dealership structure, that may well change. The EU is very pro-competition, and things you can get away with over here don't fly there - indeed, they throw people in jail for things our regulators just fine folks for.

I see nothing in the company's financials that look promising at all. Indeed, what I see is a business in trouble, where even very small further declines in sales volume could have disasterous consequences in terms of profitability.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ir?s=JOUT

Their balance sheet shows ~$60m in cash. Sounds like a lot. But they're owed that much, and have that much again in inventory. Those are high numbers, IMHO. I'd love to see some quality numbers on those receiveables and inventory aging, but that's beyond what's filed on a 10K or 10Q.

Even more troubling, there's $50m in Accounts Payable - and another $15m in current (due w/in 12 months) debt. It appears they're paying down some of their long-term debt - good, given that their business appears to be deteriorating!

I don't particularly like their cash flow statement either.... but that's me.

This is, in my analysis, a hand-to-mouth business. If the sales dried up they'd be hosed in very short order - months. Their current cash balance would barely cover their existing payables. If the entire place went away tomorrow, you'd have physical plant. Not all that good. While their current ratio is ok, they've got a deteriorating position - and a lot of what that current ratio is based on is predicated on non-fungible assets.

If Helen and friends want this pig, they can have it. Putting lipstick on a pig still leaves you with a pig. I wouldn't buy the shares on the open market, and I don't own any, so there 'ya go.

Perhaps Helen and her family don't like all this being out there where we can see it? A private concern doesn't have those pesky 10Ks and 10Qs to file, which make glowing statements at sales meetings tougher to square against the balance sheet - since you can't see it....

I see a business with declining sales and shrinking operating margins, effectively zero R&D, and a balance sheet that has trends in it that make me nervous.

All the rah-rah of a sales meeting doesn't change the public results of operations.

Any business that only makes 1.7% and is losing 10% of its revenue annually isn't doing very well. All the claims of how "wonderful" their dealer base is, and how enthusiastic it is, is overlaid by the actual operating results.

This ain't investment advice, as I ain't an investment professional - just a guy who invests his own money. YMMV.
 
Genesis:
This ain't investment advice, as I ain't an investment professional - just a guy who invests his own money. YMMV.

I happen to agree with much of your analysis - I am not, and will not become, a shareholder (unless Helen makes me CEO :wink: ).

However, the stock has performed well in the past year (80% growth), and the family offered to pay a 52-week high. Yeah, they could get some gruff about not entertaining other offers, but a shareholder suit will benefit no one but the attorneys if that is all there is to go on.

The inventory # is inline for that type of business (it's only 20% of sales, which could be on the low side for a manufacturing business, but they probably don't have much in the way of lead time on many products).

Their market cap is 50% of sales, which is low but may honestly reflect their current financial position, and near the same as their book value - for a manufacturing company, that's actually damn good.

It will be interesting to see where this leads...
 
Receiveables at 15ish% of sales suggests they're not getting paid well. Indeed, it suggests that accounts are taking 60 days to pay on average - that's not a good thing. This is why I wanted to know what the quality of that number is - what percentage of it is current (within 30 days), specifically. A number that high certainly suggests that they're having trouble getting paid, and given their SG&A picture, which is IMHO very unfavorable, anything significant that goes wrong there could be extremely serious.

Also, as sales have declined, receiveables haven't changed much. That speaks to eroding credit quality among their customers.

The problem with the SG&A number is that they're spending boatloads of money maintaining their dealer channel and/or have major inefficiencies at the home office in the "administrative" area. Either way its bad news; if they're throwing money at people to keep the channel moving, that's quite a significant gamble.

Add to that declining revenues and shrinking margins and the general way you spell that condition is trouble.

Their cash position at YE '01 was quite poor. They drummed up a bunch in '02, and appear to be living on it now. Did they turn $30m of "goodwill" into $100m of cash? The balance sheet suggests they might have. Good if you can do it - but that tends to be a one-trick pony. I haven't dug into the old annual reports - just looking at the balance sheets and income statements here....

Yeah, shareholder suits almost never do anything except make the lawyers money - and cost the company money to defend or settle. But that doesn't stop people from filing them.

I have a major ethical problem with quasi-public companies like this, and have major issues with people thinking they're truly public companies - or good investments. Without board independance you really have nothing of the kind. There was a lot of this garbage during the "Clinton Era"; most of the shares being held by either insiders or venture capitalists, and a relatively small public ownership interest - certainly not a majority. There's no way that such a company is truly "public".
 
scubatoys:
But I'd rather let the companies decide who they want to sell to and how they want to sell... then I can decide which companies I want to support, and the consumer can decide which store they want to... but maybe that would all be too easy - my brothers would be out of work - and I'd have to give them a job in the snorkel section....

Me too. I use companies like Abyss for as much as I can and I'll stop teaching and diving before I use anything from scubapro or aqualung.

Those are the two extremes and there are a few companies in th mniddle.

That's how my dollars and as much of my students dollars as I can sway that way will vote.

My studets are often the kind of people who would walk into a shop and ask for a reg, 3 rebuild kits and a service manual.
 

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