LP Warranty on AquaLung, SP, Apex etc.

[LUBOLD8431]

Receiveables at 15ish% of sales suggests they're not getting paid well. Indeed, it suggests that accounts are taking 60 days to pay on average - that's not a good thing. This is why I wanted to know what the quality of that number is - what percentage of it is current (within 30 days), specifically. A number that high certainly suggests that they're having trouble getting paid, and given their SG&A picture, which is IMHO very unfavorable, anything significant that goes wrong there could be extremely serious.

I wonder how routine it is in the scuba industry for terms of 30, 45, or even 60 days for product received in dive shops out there. I dont think its as bad as you think it is Karl. I think you would find that this is a routine process for alot of dive shops out there...

 

[Genesis]

I wonder how routine it is in the scuba industry for terms of 30, 45, or even 60 days for product received in dive shops out there. I dont think its as bad as you think it is Karl. I think you would find that this is a routine process for alot of dive shops out there...

30 days is considered "normal commercial terms."

45 days is considered "slow", and 60 days is, for most folks, called "delinquent."

Beyond 60 days is "seriously delinquent, and maybe we won't get paid at all" territory.

The problem Lubold is that their average appears to be close to 60 days, just looking at the volume. That bothers me - oh sure, there are always deadbeats, but when the averages creep up I get worried.

Remember that some people pay you immediately! A/R only reflects money you are owed for invoiced products and services that you have not collected.

This was one of the key reports (A/R aging) that I watched like a hawk when I ran my place. It is one of the most reliable ways, along with sales volume, of knowing what's going on. Problems with your customers (e.g. they're having trouble paying you!) show up there quite reliably.

Expanding AR aging along with expanding sales is not always bad, so long as the expansion of the aging is controlled - as volume goes up so does A/R, so you have to be using current (and not trailing) numbers for sales for that to be relavent.

However, if sales volume is contracting, then any significant A/R beyond 30 days is a great big chuch-bell sized warning. It means you're not only getting paid but you're also not getting the new order flow.

 

[coberry7]

All technicalities aside...I'd rather pay more to know that my life support equipment is positively going to be serviced correctly. My life is worth whatever the price difference is. And it boils down to that...My life.

 

[Genesis]

All technicalities aside...I'd rather pay more to know that my life support equipment is positively going to be serviced correctly. My life is worth whatever the price difference is. And it boils down to that...My life.

Then you can't, in the main, take it to the LDS for service.

I challenge you to find ONE manufacturer who requires that the people who they certify to do their service have any degree of mechanical background or training, or, for that matter, any educational credential whatsoever, to get in their class.

Oh, by the way, that "class" is typically a couple of hours at DEMA. Zero to hero in two hours.

I further challenge you to check the percentage of shops that have a torque wrench on their reg bench. Virtually all regs have at least one fastener with a torque spec - yet essentially no "certified reg tech" bothers with such silliness.

(And, by the way, the risk of being "wrong" on that is pretty severe. The most common torque-specified fastener is the swivel turret retaining bolt; if its overtightened it can be easily damaged, with the possibility of it failing under pressure without warning. That would cause the turret to be ejected underwater, while in use - a catastrophic failure, not to mention that the turret would be propelled by roughly 150lbs of force into whatever happens to be "in line" - like your head!)

Go do some of your own investigation on this. Simply walk into your LDS and ask to see the reg tech's torque wrench, and what his educational and job-history credentials look like. A shop should be perfectly prepared to produce both of those to your satisfaction without argument or debate.

After all, it is your life, right?

 

[coberry7]

Cool it Genesis. It is my life. I've done my homework. I trust the reg mechanic with my life. I trust him with my student's life. I do not trust LP with my life. I do not know who works on it there, and I cannot watch them do it with my own two eyes. Is that clear? He is good at rebuilding damn near anything, and I am looking forward to learning from him. Believe it or not, there are people that know how to do things the right way.

I have left other shops who outsource their work. Believe it or not, I have found a shop that not only competes with LP, but often beats them. They provide the stuff that a storefront LDS can provide, and they have a damn good reg rebuilder in a huge workshop with more tools than I can count...ONSITE. And yes, he has a torgue wrench. I've worked with enough high pressure systems to know how important one is. So has he, evidently, as it is on the front of the hook on the wall, not buried and unused.

Genesis said,
"Then you can't, in the main, take it to the LDS for service."

Yes, I can, and do. That was a rather general statement that had no basis in fact regarding my LDS. Especially since you are wholly unqualified to say anything about my LDS.

Colin Berry

 

[gj62]

I guess we now have to all become reg mechanics to dive too!

 

[scubasean]

Then you can't, in the main, take it to the LDS for service.

I challenge you to find ONE manufacturer who requires that the people who they certify to do their service have any degree of mechanical background or training, or, for that matter, any educational credential whatsoever, to get in their class.

I would think that the specs determining the requirements to successfully complete the course would be your focus, since very few service industry jobs require a preemployment credential....Certainly, auto mechanics, bank tellers at some banks, cops (some jurisdictions), and others only have to complete the course successfully...

I know that your next urging might be that the course is not up to snuff...or that folks don't meet the specs when they do the work....

But, more importantly (IMHO) I fail to see what *you* are actually doing to correct the situation, except to complain about it.

Are you trying to get these places put out of business, offering folks your services as an alternative, or perhaps coaching or funding a business that runs the way you espouse...? If someone here on SB tells you they will be that person and gladly run it your way, will you fund their first six months?

I agree with much of what you say here on SB, but wonder why you are complaining so much rather than putting the effort towards correcting these things....I wish I had the free time you have, so I could help you get those things to be corrected...but only as long as you are actuially taking action, rather than just talking about it all...And, I do not believe that getting your own compressor, servicing your own regs, and teaching yourself how to cave dive is a solution....unless you only care to solve your personal problem, rather than the grander problems you raise as issues.

I'm moving towards buying my own compressor, but mainly because of convenience, and the darn short fills from the fill monkeys...heh...but I recognize that I am not working to solve problems in the scuba industry, nor am I complaining about them.

 

[Genesis]

I have a standing offer that anyone who is tired of the claims that these things (regs) are oh-so-difficult is welcome to come by and have a beer - and I'll strip both a first and second on the kitchen table in front of 'em, along with showing 'em exactly where you get everything except seats - the only parts that need to be "official".

Knowledge is power. And your reg is no more difficult to work on than your kitchen faucet. Yes, it does require a couple of special tools, but they're not expensive, and are sold to anyone with money.

For those who say "its life support gear!" I say "Yep. And this morning I replaced the ignitor on my furnace, which had failed. $150 to have the furnace man come out? C'mon. The ignitor cost $25 and took 5 mintues to install. Yeah, its a gas furnace - if I do it wrong, I blow up. I'm still here. Next question please?"

I'm not - and never have - said that there are no good shops. There clearly are. But they are in the severe minority. The only defense to this, as with any other area of knowledge where your life and health are on the line, is to become educated.

You speak to people fixing cars and such. Good analogy, by the way. Have you ever seen one of these "classes" that only lasted an hour or two? Yet this is what makes someone "certified" to repair regs. Oh, that and working for an "authorized" dive shop.

Yes, your brain is really emptied (according to the manufacturers) if you quit or are fired, and no longer work for that authorized dealer.

Tell that one to the independant auto mechanics.

What am I doing about it? What makes sense. Hopefully, beginning with provoking people into thinking. Demonstrating, when someone cares to see it with their own eyes. Living what I believe.

That's more than most will do, and, over time, is more than enough.

 

[gj62]

I have a standing offer that anyone who is tired of the claims that these things (regs) are oh-so-difficult is welcome to come by and have a beer - and I'll strip both a first and second on the kitchen table in front of 'em, along with showing 'em exactly where you get everything except seats - the only parts that need to be "official".

Knowledge is power. And your reg is no more difficult to work on than your kitchen faucet. Yes, it does require a couple of special tools, but they're not expensive, and are sold to anyone with money.

LOL - you can strip and service a regulator over your kitchen table while having a beer, but we're not supposed to trust the guy at the LDS that has had (a) a few hours overview, and (b) likely learned from the guy there before him and (c) probably does a number of regulators a week - plus have the tools, etc.

While kitchen faucets don't require a torque wrench, overtightening is not good. I've also not heard of the swivel turret retaining screw shearing - must be pretty easy to guage the torque without a wrench - maybe experience comes into play?

Of course, there are bad shops, but I will place them in the severe minority, at least in the areas I've been exposed to. Those places in Destin - well, I can't comment...

 

[Genesis]

LOL - you can strip and service a regulator over your kitchen table while having a beer, but we're not supposed to trust the guy at the LDS that has had (a) a few hours overview, and (b) likely learned from the guy there before him and (c) probably does a number of regulators a week - plus have the tools, etc.

While kitchen faucets don't require a torque wrench, overtightening is not good. I've also not heard of the swivel turret retaining screw shearing - must be pretty easy to guage the torque without a wrench - maybe experience comes into play?

I've heard that one before.

Its been studied, by the way. It was shown that trained mechanics who work on vehicles for a living - that is, folks who turn wrenches for a LIVING - were usually off by 20-25% when they "guessed", and most of the time they overtightened the fastener.

Now that's someone who does this all day long, and should be able to "feel" the proper torque - if anyone can. Well, they can't - so I don't even try.

BTW, I have seen a turret bolt that was very, very close to failure. Stripped a Mk10 that I bought and found it.

Fortunately.

Of course, there are bad shops, but I will place them in the severe minority, at least in the areas I've been exposed to. Those places in Destin - well, I can't comment...

Again, if there's a torque spec, why isn't it being followed?

There is a torque spec. If you're doing it "by the book", then you need a torque wrench.

No way around it.

(BTW, I work on my own diesels on my boat too. Nobody in their right mind would be playing with injectors and such without a torque wrench on a diesel. Nobody. And there, the risk of a screw-up is just a big bill to replace whatever you trashed. Here, the risk is literally your butt.)