Looking for Guardian FFM to rent for child (also posted on OTS forum)

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3D diver:
Sorry, I know this is none of my business...but as a parent, and as a diver I gotta say:

IMHO: each diver has to be able to call the dive, when they want, no questions asked. How can a child do this under this kind of pressure?
Can you please elaborate on the "pressure" in-which you're referring?

mayesie:
As it currently stands, she really wants nothing to do with it (despite several accommodations), so I think a lot of the complaints regarding the standard mask and regulator are simply excuses for not going diving. She has excellent equipment and exposure protection, she knows I'm experienced enough to properly look after her, and she also knows I'm not going to pressure her in the water. On a couple of occasions, we went in the water and she couldn't descend due to equilization problems (she has allergies and has since received treatment). I don't get upset with her; we simply go back to shore and I tell her we can try again at a later time. I'm hopeful she'll be interested in trying out a DPV; we'll see how it goes.

Highlighted portions is where I sense parental pressure. There's nothing wrong with a little parental pressure. But there are times when it's probably better to move on or put something on hiatus.
It might be she's just not into diving or she's not into the ocean. If it's the latter I think diving is history for her.
 
Apologies in advance if your profile is inaccurate and/or I'm missing some info about you, but I figure every thread needs at least 2-3 of these responses on Scubaboard and some things in this post really jumped out at me.

She has excellent equipment and exposure protection, she knows I'm experienced enough to properly look after her,

I appreciate that in many of the Monterey dives you're talking about doing, you're probably right. She really needs to be able to properly look after herself though. Do you have any actual training on looking after other divers? As a divemaster (amongst other things) I HAVE specific training on how to help/rescue other divers on both the bottom and the surface, and I can tell you that there are a number of problems I have a relatively slim chance of helping a person out of underwater without running the risk of becoming a potential victim myself. A diver who decides to suddenly and earnestly start bolting for the surface is one of them, and this is (sadly) not uncommon with divers who are uncomfortable in the water they're in.

I'm glad to hear that you're abandoning the FFM idea, because that compounds everything significantly. Anyway, no amount of ability to solve a problem for somebody else will help if you're separated, which leads me to...

I'm hopeful she'll be interested in trying out a DPV; we'll see how it goes.

So, again, please forgive me if your profile is not accurate and I'm missing some important info here. How much experience do you have on a DPV, and especially on a DPV in limited visibility?

I dive with a DPV very frequently. In the grand scheme of things, I have a LOT more training and experience than the vast majority of divers with your posted dive count, and I'm just a guppie compared to some of the folks I dive with. This is not me bragging - this is me telling you that as a diver with significant recreational, technical, and professional training, I can personally attest to just how incredibly quickly things can turn into a major clusterf**k when DPVs are involved.

In our area, there are many weekends we would consider totally diveable where - due to the visibility - total separation can occur in as little as 1-2 seconds on the trigger of a DPV. To put that in perspective...

Your daughter comes to a stop momentarily, because (for example) her mask was leaking. You stop as well (like a good buddy should), and decide to look down and check your pressure gauge since you're already stopped (and it can be awkward to do while scootering if you're not really comfortable on the DPV, or if you're using a two-handed DPV). She assumed you were ready to go (you just stopped for a second, after all) and hits the trigger. You look up and she's gone. No bubbles, no fins, nothing.

Alternatively, reverse the roles.

That's not a contrived example - for all intents and purposes, I've been in exactly that situation before. Both myself and my buddy were very experienced divers, and all it took was a split-second lapse in awareness. I knew his training, and he knew mine, and we were as confident as possible that we would both make it to the surface safely. He's a good buddy, and I like diving with him. We were, however, completely and totally alone until the time we were both back on shore, and I can tell you that to say I was "worried" (I made it back first) would be a significant understatement. Even ignoring my own training, if it was my daughter and I wasn't sure that she was incredibly comfortable being in that water, alone, on that equipment... Well, you get the picture.

That's just one example of the myriad problems you can get yourself into when you're travelling that quickly through water. DPVs require excellent situational awareness and communication on everybody's part, good dive planning that takes the worst-case scenario into account, and when the sh*t DOES hit the fan, an honest ability to safely end the dive alone and manage a potentially serious situation from the surface.

Just my $0.02 (well, more like $1.20...)
Brian
 
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Highlighted portions is where I sense parental pressure. There's nothing wrong with a little parental pressure. But there are times when it's probably better to move on or put something on hiatus.
It might be she's just not into diving or she's not into the ocean. If it's the latter I think diving is history for her.

Thanks for clarifying.....

She's going through one of those PITA stages where everything has to be perfect, according to her interpretation of the world. Otherwise, it's not appealing to her. Unfortunately, she sometimes loses interest in a given activity, once she realizes that it's not all peaches and cream (despite significant investments from those who aim to support her).

While I'm not looking to gear her up and throw her into the water whether she likes-it-or-not (which makes everyone miserable), I'd like to examine the possibility there's something out there to help make scuba diving more enjoyable (though I admit I'm just about at the "hiatus" stage you mentioned above).

I also don't wish to convey that it's ok to bail so easily on an expressed commitment, simply because everything isn't exactly the way she wants it to be.

As of now, I ask her if she wants to dive every time I go out, then simply go without her.
 
She's going through one of those PITA stages where everything has to be perfect, according to her interpretation of the world. Otherwise, it's not appealing to her. Unfortunately, she sometimes loses interest in a given activity, once she realizes that it's not all peaches and cream (despite significant investments from those who aim to support her).

She'll get over it as she grows and experiences different things.
 
Can you please elaborate on the "pressure" in-which you're referring?


Well...you're there and I'm not, so take it as a given I'm speaking out of turn & accept my appology, please.

That said, when I read this:

So, to summarize, her gripes are 1) Cold Water (She has a Lavacore, Waterproof Taurus Semidry, AND BARE 5mm hooded vest), 2) Crappy vis (I tell her it gets better as you descend), 3) She doesn't like the way the mask and reg feels on her (I'm going to get her a smaller mouthpiece for her second stage), and 4) She doesn't like having all of that 'heavy crap' on (I carry it for her on the surface)!

I think two things:

1) she's telling you in many ways she doesn't want to dive
2) If she were an adult, I'd call the dive (or, rather, let her call the dive)...but it sounds like you're still negotiating. No matter how nice, that's still a lot of pressure for a kid, IMHO.

We made our kids take piano lessons, and understand the need to occasionally apply a little parental pressure, but SCUBA diving is a whole different catagory of activity where peer, or parental, pressure are dangerously out of place.
 
Apologies in advance if your profile is inaccurate and/or I'm missing some info about you, but I figure every thread needs at least 2-3 of these responses on Scubaboard and some things in this post really jumped out at me.



I appreciate that in many of the Monterey dives you're talking about doing, you're probably right. She really needs to be able to properly look after herself though. Do you have any actual training on looking after other divers? As a divemaster (amongst other things) I HAVE specific training on how to help/rescue other divers on both the bottom and the surface, and I can tell you that there are a number of problems I have a relatively slim chance of helping a person out of underwater without running the risk of becoming a potential victim myself. A diver who decides to suddenly and earnestly start bolting for the surface is one of them, and this is (sadly) not uncommon with divers who are uncomfortable in the water they're in.

I'm glad to hear that you're abandoning the FFM idea, because that compounds everything significantly. Anyway, no amount of ability to solve a problem for somebody else will help if you're separated, which leads me to...



So, again, please forgive me if your profile is not accurate and I'm missing some important info here. How much experience do you have on a DPV, and especially on a DPV in limited visibility?

I dive with a DPV very frequently. In the grand scheme of things, I have a LOT more training and experience than the vast majority of divers with your posted dive count, and I'm just a guppie compared to some of the folks I dive with. This is not me bragging - this is me telling you that as a diver with significant recreational, technical, and professional training, I can personally attest to just how incredibly quickly things can turn into a major clusterf**k when DPVs are involved.

In our area, there are many weekends we would consider totally diveable where - due to the visibility - total separation can occur in as little as 1-2 seconds on the trigger of a DPV. To put that in perspective...

Your daughter comes to a stop momentarily, because (for example) her mask was leaking. You stop as well (like a good buddy should), and decide to look down and check your pressure gauge since you're already stopped (and it can be awkward to do while scootering if you're not really comfortable on the DPV, or if you're using a two-handed DPV). She assumed you were ready to go (you just stopped for a second, after all) and hits the trigger. You look up and she's gone. No bubbles, no fins, nothing.

Alternatively, reverse the roles.

That's not a contrived example - for all intents and purposes, I've been in exactly that situation before. Both myself and my buddy were very experienced divers, and all it took was a split-second lapse in awareness. I knew his training, and he knew mine, and we were as confident as possible that we would both make it to the surface safely. He's a good buddy, and I like diving with him. We were, however, completely and totally alone until the time we were both back on shore, and I can tell you that to say I was "worried" (I made it back first) would be a significant understatement. Even ignoring my own training, if it was my daughter and I wasn't sure that she was incredibly comfortable being in that water, alone, on that equipment... Well, you get the picture.

That's just one example of the myriad problems you can get yourself into when you're travelling that quickly through water. DPVs require excellent situational awareness and communication on everybody's part, good dive planning that takes the worst-case scenario into account, and when the sh*t DOES hit the fan, an honest ability to safely end the dive alone and manage a potentially serious situation from the surface.

Just my $0.02 (well, more like $1.20...)
Brian


Hi Hepcat,
No apologies necessary; I had noticed your post after I had responded to someone else, and wanted to take some time to address the items you brought up:

- Yes, I believe my profile is incomplete, so I'll go ahead and get that squared-away

- I'm a Divemaster candidate who started training this past May (I originally certified in 1994 in Okinawa, Japan, was going through Divemaster training, and stopped once back in the States; I started diving frequently again this past Feb). I've been regularly (i.e. 2-3 weekends per month) going out with the Instructor and students (mostly OW, but also help out with AOW and Rescue) to assist the Instructor in making sure the students are safe while training. I've completed all of my academic work, along with my briefings and most of my skills. I have a few skills left to go (i.e. simulated rescue scenario, gear exchange while buddy breathing, etc). To be honest, I'm in no major rush, as I wish to continue soaking-in as much information and experience as possible. Though I typically log few dives while training students (this typically happens when I go out on fun dives every week) , I still relish the opportunity to improve my skills while helping students enjoy diving as much as possible.

I also frequently take various members of my family diving (1-2 times per month). I may decide to go the Asst. Instructor route so I may handle additional responsibilities while helping to train students, but I don't see myself becoming a full-fledged Instructor. I have no career aspirations in scuba; I may pursue Tec training down the road, but am more focused on making sure I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, while having as much fun as possible.

Here are most of the items I handle while I'm with the students:
- assist with supervision and skills training (to include proper equipment assembly and donning) in the pool and open water; I like to perform demonstrations as often as possible. Help ensure students are following safe practices (i.e. paying attention, staying close to buddy, etc)
- run the buoy out to the open water and anchor the lines
- perform dive briefings
- keep a close eye on student divers; anticipate problems and correct them as quickly as possible (i.e. equipment malfunction, weighting issue, etc)
- help struggling students with a specific skill, or bring them back to shore if they're having a particularly unpleasant experience (i.e. shivering, scared, etc)

I'm no world beater, but am pretty confident that my skills are sufficient to competently lead other divers. I've found that it's especially important to guard against overconfidence, as this gives one the false notion that little shortcuts can be taken here and there. Little shortcuts lead to little mistakes, which potentially lead to big mistakes!

The shop I'm affiliated with has some DPVs which are brought out approximately once per month (typically for AOW training). As far as my Daughter is concerned, I'd like to initially get her on a DPV in this type of training environment, where she's under the supervision of an Instructor, along with myself.

She's open to trying one out; she's also open to going diving in Catalina, where the water is a little warmer (for now). Of course, she's happy to go somewhere tropical to dive. As I hinted before, I'll continue to be patient, and hopefully she'll see that we're all having a blast, and decide to get-in on the action!

Take Care,
Ian
 
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