Long hose question

[detroit diver]

Braunbehrens once bubbled...


......

I agree. Also, there are really no situations where you need to break it away. If you are doing drills, then simply turn your backup back on.

.....

For those of us not as proficient as you at turning on/off our valves- ie we're practicing to get better- then "simply turning on your backup" may not be the best choice, or even available.

What harm is caused by having th o-ring on the primary hose/reg?

 

[Braunbehrens]

detroit diver once bubbled...


For those of us not as proficient as you at turning on/off our valves- ie we're practicing to get better- then "simply turning on your backup" may not be the best choice, or even available.

What harm is caused by having th o-ring on the primary hose/reg?

I don't think it's a huge big deal. If you really feel that you need it, then by all means. The only downside to breakaways is that they, well, breakaway. This can cause a problem. Let's say you are OOA, and are breathing off your buddies long hose, but your breakaway o-ring is gone. Now your 7 ft sea anchor trails behind, and snags something...

Like I said, not a big hairy deal, not all that likely to cause problems, but if a breakaway is not needed, don't use it.

Eventually messing with the valves becomes easier and then you might want to consider changing it.

If you are on quest, check the archives, I seem to remember some back and forth on this a while back, with the final consensus being that a breakaway is not needed on the primary UNLESS you are diving a 'breather.

BTW, if you are doing valve drills you MUST have your buddy right in front of you, almost in your face, watching you, ready to donate at the drop of a hat. Make sure that if he just did a drill all his valves are open. I could just see a huge cluster developing if one person isn't all that comfortable getting to the valves, and the other isn't watching or has their own backup turned off etc.

BTW2. My valves used to be really hard to turn. I always wondered if I'd be able to get to the valve and turn it if it was an urgent situation. Well, I did a valve drill and forgot to turn the primary back on. I'm sure you are familiar with the situation, you just turned your backup off and now you have NO working reg. Let me tell you, never before was I that good at getting to the valve and turning it on ;-)

 

[large_diver]

Not that you are specifically referencing DIR here, but since you brought up Quest....(which I avoid like the plague).......

The GUE/DIR folks seem to go back and forth on this topic. The person who set up the primary breakaway pictured in the link I provided above has been through GUE Tech 1 and Cave 1 (taught by Fraser Purdon & David Rhea, respectively). Obviously the breakaway primary was endorsed at some time by GUE.....but of course, they have been known to change their minds sometimes...;-)

 

[patmandu]

Since it's my picture that seems to be causing the debate, I figured I'd jump in on this discussion.

The breakaway setup on the long hose (as pictured) was actually taught during my Tech1 course (but the class was ages ago in march of 2001).

I do remember the thread on Quest where GI3 said that a breakaway was only needed when diving a 'breather.

I used the same breakaway setup during my C1 course (as did my buddy) and we were not told to change it. I think it was pointed out and we were told we *could* tie it off with cave line or leave it the way it was.

Personally, I think the breakaway has merit as it's a viable gas source in case something happens. Maybe I'm being overly cautious but I want to be able to deploy the hose without having to fumble around with unsnapping a bolt in an emergency.

The bit about having the oring fail for some reason and you won't be able to do anything with the reg and it will be dragging around is pretty ridiculous. If the oring fails its an inconvience. Changing the o-ring at your annual service and brief inspections while washing gear is enough to make sure there is no indication of impending failure.

In the example of it dragging it around, the oring would have to fail and then the hose would have to magically jump from around my neck......

Maybe I'm wrong on this, and maybe they'll come take my cards away but I'm going to continue with the oring breakaway on the long hose.

 

[large_diver]

Thanks Patrick....better to hear it from the horse's mouth than from some tech wannabe like me ;-)

 

[Braunbehrens]

patmandu once bubbled...
I do remember the thread on Quest where GI3 said that a breakaway was only needed when diving a 'breather.

The bit about having the oring fail for some reason and you won't be able to do anything with the reg and it will be dragging around is pretty ridiculous.

Just curious then, if the o-ring failing is such a minor thing and really a non-issue, what is the argument against it?

 

[patmandu]

That's a good question that I don't think anyone really has an answer to.

I understand and agree with 99.9% of what DIR is and why things are the way they are in the system. And, I try my best to not stray from the system, as deviating from one thing causes CF's with other things.

That being said, I'm stumped why this is a big issue. Maybe it comes down to the fact that in a 100% DIR world you would never have to go to your clipped off long hose or donate it once it was parked and you were breathing off another bottle. But unfortunately I don't live in that DIR utopia.

I dive with students and I dive off boats that have recreational divers on them. I want to have the option to be able to deploy the long hose to anyone who might need gas in an instant. I don't want to be fooling around trying to unclip the hose during a higher stress event. Having the option of 'breaking away' the longhose is important to me. Additonally, in a DIR environment I have always pictured the possibility of being at my 20ft stop on 02 and having one of my buddies either lose buoyancy or have a problem on O2, in this case I want my long hose primary in his face in a heartbeat. I don't want to be thinking about unclipping and donating, I want to be thinking about sticking the regulator in his face.

What I don't get is why people think the o-ring is so flimsy and insecure and is prone to breaking. Have you ever tried to break one away? It takes some dedicated force and effort to break it. It's not going to just snap because you brush against it.

Since you asked the question, let me put it back to you. What is so dangerous about have a breakaway on the primary, yet having a breakaway on the SPG is a good thing? I would think that you wouldn't immediately notice your spg's oring disenegrating and having the hose dangling in the breeze. Whereas in the unlikely even that the long hose's oring falls apart you would notice it.

Maybe I'm just not thinking this through, and I'm hoping that you can enlighten me to why this is such a bad thing. I'm genuinely curious.

--Pat

 

[Doppler]

So many years ago, this guy I know is looking for spiritual guidance and he spends some time in a Carmalite Monastery. Well, after hearing about doves flying down from heaven and impregnating virgins, he has some questions framed for his next session with Father Ronan Murphy... his spiritual guide in this place. He posed his questions. "Father, how can this be? It defies logic... etc." Well Father Murphy shakes his head and explains it all by saying: "You simply have to have faith my son. God's word is infallible and what he tells us in the bible may be difficult for us to understand... but we must not question it but must have faith that it points us to the true way. There can be no deviation."



Doppler

 

[Braunbehrens]

Doppler once bubbled...
So many years ago, this guy I know is looking for spiritual guidance and he spends some time in a Carmalite Monastery.

I prefer diving Monastery beach in Carmel, but hey, to each his own.

As for the O-ring question...

I think it comes down to simply not having a breakaway in places where you don't need it. I understand your arguments for using it on the primary, but I don't agree with them 100%. First off, I have never had a problem getting my long hose off of the D-ring. It's pretty unlikely to get it tangled. The spg on the other hand, is pretty easy to tangle up when you've got a couple stages.

However, your previous comment about the primary staying put even without being clipped off is also true. I used to be lazy at times and not clip off the primary if I was going to go back to it soon (like during a valve drill). It never went anywhere.

I think that another reason for the no breakaway rule may be that if you are scootering in a cave for long distances things are a bit different. Something that is a minor annoyance could become more of a liability, and due to the length of the long hose it could get caught in a prop.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

BTW, Doppler, what we are doing is the opposite of what you are criticising in such a hilarious way. We are actually exploring the reasons behind the rules, as opposed to blindly accepting them. If we were, then this thread would have ended with me making a one line post "because Trey said so".

Speaking of which, I'll take a look at the archives and see if I can come up with a better reason than the one I gave.

BTW, I still don't think it's a big deal to have a breakaway there, as I said before.

I think there is stuff that is completely and 100% necessary to be DIR. There are other things that are not that big of a deal. This is one of them, as is, for example, the issue of brass bolt snaps. There is in fact a picture of the content of Trey's pockets and in one of them he has a brass double ender. SS is better, but using a brass bolt snap once in a while won't kill you.

 

[roakey]

I use bicycle innertube for all my hose-to-snap attachments. I took GUE Cave I in '99; JJ and Ted Cole went over my rig with a fine tooth comb and JJ looked carefully at how I setup the connections and neevr commented on them, so I assume they passed muster.

But as my subject line states, this is from a couple of years ago. Despite the claims form those who don't like DIR, DIR does evolve with time, so who knows, this may no longer be acceptable. But it works for me.

Roak