Logging dives towards instructor exam by hanging off anchor line at 20'?

[SeaLevelScuba]

I think they just upped the requirement from Intro Cave to Full Cave for PADI Cavern instructors. Trust me when I say that Mike meets the standard.

R

Biscuit7, I think what Scuba_Dad was pointing out was Mike's generalization of the PADI Cavern course. There are many fine instructors that teach both the PADI & the NSS-CDS cavern course, afterall, the same sylabus is used and the vast majority of the NSS-CDS & NACD instructors used their PADI card for access to those programs just because they could.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike,
Maybe you need to review the PADI standards on what it takes to become a cavern instructor. Your generality "because I could" is very misleading. Can you quote the most current standards on what it takes to become a cavern instructor?

Al

I can quote my copy of the standards, which may or may not be the latest...OW instructor having issued 25 certifications of any kind, cave diver with 20 dives and a check.

What's misleading about saying "because I could"? The point is that I was certified as a cavern diving instructor and in my whole diving career, I only ever witnessed one cavern class and that was the one in which I was a student.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I know what your talking aboot Mike when you say some shops reward for number of students trained
.... fortunately for me, my instructor is never on that list ... takes too much time with his students

Actually, I was talking about the agency rewarding instructors and shops for the number of students certified.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Biscuit7, I think what Scuba_Dad was pointing out was Mike's generalization of the PADI Cavern course.

what generalization?

There are many fine instructors that teach both the PADI & the NSS-CDS cavern course,

There may be fine instructors who teach the PADI cavern course, however, I don't find anything in the standards that appears to be designed to insure that.

afterall, the same sylabus is used

I don't think the PADI course uses the same sylabus. Apparently there were some significant changes this past year. Prior to that the PADI standards weren't even close and I still don't think they are there.

For just a couple of examples, there is no written test and there is no requirement for no-mask drills.

I don't know what the official stance of the NSS-CDS or the NACD is but I do know of several cave instructors who will not give a student credit for the PADI cavern course specifically because of the differences in skill requirements.

From http://www.scubaboard.com/showthread.php?t=151431&highlight=PADI

PADI Cavern Diver Course Changes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know many of us have made fun of PADI's cavern course. But it looks like PADI is taking steps to make this a more legitimate course preparing students for further overhead training. Starting in Q1 of this year, there are new changes to the standards for this course.

1) Out of Air drills: OOA drills must be practiced in open water prior to entering an overhead environment. OOA drills are now performed on cavern dives 3 and 4 in an overhead environment.

Previous standard: No OOA drills in an overhead environment.

2) Gas management: Divers must now use the rule of thirds for planning their overhead dives.

Previous standard: Divers must independently calculate turn pressures.

3) Restrictions: Places to narrow to allow divers to pass side by side or piggyback are prohibited.

Previous standard: Nothing about restrictions

4) Cavern Instructor Prerequisite: Instructors must now be FULL cave certified from a cave diving training agency. No word if PADI will accept a GUE Cave 2 card or not.

Previous standard: Cavern instructors only had to be Into to Cave trained

5) Instructor equipment: Cavern instructors must now wear full cave diving equipment including doubles and long hose.

Previous standard: Same equipment as student.

6) Equipment recommendations: Students are highly encouraged to wear BP/W and a long hose. Students are still not permitted to use doubles for the class.

So I think this is a good step in the right direction for PADI, but I don't think it quite matches up with NACD or the CDS. Still doesn't come close to GUE. I really hope this is not in preparation for a PADI full cave course.

__________________

and the vast majority of the NSS-CDS & NACD instructors used their PADI card for access to those programs just because they could.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Edited to add I think both the NACD and the NSS-CDS require an instructor to be a recreatioal instructor with some agency as a prereq to cave diving instructor training. However, both the NACD-CDS and the NACD have significantly more stringent requirements for instructors.

 

[WVDiver]

If a pesrson is this dishonest and sneaky I don't see why they just didn't stay on the dock and fill out their logbook. If they are so stupid to believe that this is really getting dive experience, they shouldn't be an instructor. If the dive op is so stupid that they think their soon to be instructors and gaining any real experience here they should be out of business.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Compare this to the PADI cavern instructor requirements. There is a lot more to becoming a NSS-CDS instructor than sending in a copy of your cave card and a check.

From http://www.nsscds.org/training_new/want2binstructor.htm

The CDS believes that in order to train qualified and truly competent Instructors, those Instructor Interns must study in a mentor capacity, thus allowing the experiences of other CDS Instructors to be passed on. In addition, the CDS believes that student behavior, within the cave zone, is best learned by witness accounts, rather than textbook scenarios.

Our mentor process requires you to obtain Sponsor approval & then co-teach a minimum of three classes at that level. With the approval of your Sponsor you may enroll in an Instructor Institute. Upon admittance to an institute you will be evaluated on your abilities to present CDS materials, field exercises, and student control within the cave. The possible results of attending the institute are PASS, PROVISIONAL, FAIL. A more detailed description of this process and requirements can be located within the 2000 Standards & Procedures Manual.

I think there is a good chance that this process will result in a good instructor, though no process is 100% effective.
PADI doesn't seem to think that any of this is necessary and essentially has no process at all. What do you think that PADI knows about vavern or cave training that the NSS-CDS or the NACD doesn't?

 

[Sandbar]

The whole thing is irrelavant. The sport is self-governed...unlike aviation or even driving a car. As long as it remains that way, there is no check and balance, and hence...loop hole central.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The whole thing is irrelavant. The sport is self-governed...unlike aviation or even driving a car. As long as it remains that way, there is no check and balance, and hence...loop hole central.

I disagree that it's irrelavant.

Each agency may govern and regulate itself but each agencies efforts are NOT equal. Contrary to the often repeated myth that agency doesn't matter, I believe that the agency matters a great deal. Reading the standards demonstrates that there are clearly some very significant differences.

 

[SeaLevelScuba]

Actually, I was talking about the agency rewarding instructors and shops for the number of students certified.

What agencies reward instructors and shops for number of students certified?

 

[jeandiver]

The whole thing is irrelavant. The sport is self-governed...unlike aviation or even driving a car. As long as it remains that way, there is no check and balance, and hence...loop hole central.

Er.... :shakehead
Well , Dang gum...I'm speechless again...

Politics in diving... Hmmmm ....

Jeano Beano

P.S. As far as it goes , I got a PADI Cavern cert but then got re-certified cavern under NSS-CDS... The NSS-CDS course has much more in it than the PADI course.

PADI stops at Cavern while the others go thru Full cave.
But again , the PADI cavern got me access to work on my Cavern skills to take the NSS/CDS - NACD courses I needed to go thru the Full cave route!!!

But again , me , diving politics , NEVER !!!