Liability Waivers

[Esprise Me]

The enforceability of waivers varies by jurisdiction. In California, you can definitely sign away your right to sue for ordinary negligence. I have no idea about Chinese law, but I too would be wary of assuming it would protect my interests against a Chinese company.

 

[scuba2you]

I'd be less concerned about the contents of the waiver, and more concerned about this. I've heard, from people who have lived and worked in China long term, that non-Chinese Nationals almost always lose in Chinese courts when suing a Chinese National.

Oh, you don't know how right you are, I spent a career in an industry heavily involved in China, rarely have I seen a positive outcome in a Chinese court for a foreign entity. Hong Kong used to be an exception but this will change fast now that the mainland government is getting involved.

 

[Cert1967]

Seems to me if you want to ride, you’re gonna sign. I had more than one refuse to sign or try to change the form at the dock. They didn’t ride. What the form has no bearing on that, it’s part of the price of admission.

It is my understanding that liability waivers protect you from nuisance lawsuits. They are supposed to keep people from suing you for their accident just because you exist. If you are negligent and your negligence is in any way responsible for the accident, the waiver is worthless, regardless of what it may say.

Wookie - Florida, from your point of view great state to operate in.

BJ - Florida, well .... Colorado, a little reading would help. Waivers are worthless, maybe not.

A quick read of Borden may help with insight into an exculpatory contract.

 

[Cert1967]

Enjoyed reading Borden? Can’t sleep? Well you should follow on with

https://scholar.google.com/scholar_...6288270&q=borden+v+phillips&hl=en&as_sdt=4006

Waivers not worth the paper they are written on?

Maybe a little more research

Business owners and dive pros would be well advised to consult with counsel and offset unacceptable risk with an insurance contract - dollars well spent

 

[Manatee Diver]

Hong Kong used to be an exception but this will change fast now that the mainland government is getting involved.

I really need to go see Hong Kong before it falls too far. I've only been to the airport but I want to see the city that has inspired so many movies.

 

[Doc]

 

[dmaziuk]

Oh, you don't know how right you are, I spent a career in an industry heavily involved in China, rarely have I seen a positive outcome in a Chinese court for a foreign entity. Hong Kong used to be an exception but this will change fast now that the mainland government is getting involved.

I doubt China is an exception, once you're out of NorthAm/EU/ANZ. I'm fairly certain your chances of winning a case in Ukraine, if it ever gets to court in the first place ("horrible backlog" an' all), are in 2% range if you're lucky.

 

[Ghost95]

I don't like it but as others have said, if you want a ride you have to sign. It doesn't absolve them if they are negligent... or maybe grossly negligent? I'm not sure, I've seen it explained in other threads by those that are in the know on legal boatie issues. Also, you can't sign away someone else's rights so that part of the contract is just there to scare someone away from hiring a lawyer. Once they hired a lawyer, he would explain it to them.

This is one of those things that is a result of scammers taking advantage of our legal system in the US. I'm all for suing someone if they really do something bad and injure/kill you. But if you do something dumb and injure/kill yourself the boat people shouldn't be hung out to dry.

So.. sign the waiver, or buy your own boat, or don't dive, or move to Venice Beach.

Funny you mentioned Venice. There is a charter there that has you sign a waiver like this, releasing then from gross negligence and such. I thought the point of a charter was that you were hiring a crew that was competent, aka not negligent.

Oh yeah, when they tell me that they have an ERIB, (Emergency Reckoning Information Beacon) on the boat I get a little suspicious of competency. Maybe it's because I run vessels for a living, but still...You also get an hour lecture on how not to scratch the boat. I won't dive with them again. Not that it was a bad ride just little things like the waiver and ERIB raise red flags.

By the way, it's EPIRB, Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon.

 

[Gareth J]

In the UK (and EU I believe), waivers are not worth the paper they are written on.

I have signed no end of American waivers on courses in the UK where the American agency requires the waiver to be signed to comply with the agency rules, but where they have no bearing in law. In fact, in some cases, they have been viewed as an attempt by the organisation to avoid their legal obligations, the courts really don't like that!
I am pretty sure PADI in the UK got into a lot of hot water about 15 years back after a death on an open water course, the fact a waiver had been signed made things a lot worse for them. Almost seen as an admission of negligence on their part.

 

[Edward3c]

In the UK (and EU I believe), waivers are not worth the paper they are written on.

I have signed no end of American waivers on courses in the UK where the American agency requires the waiver to be signed to comply with the agency rules, but where they have no bearing in law. In fact, in some cases, they have been viewed as an attempt by the organisation to avoid their legal obligations, the courts really don't like that!
I am pretty sure PADI in the UK got into a lot of hot water about 15 years back after a death on an open water course, the fact a waiver had been signed made things a lot worse for them. Almost seen as an admission of negligence on their part.

If I remember correctly the instructor was jailed for manslaughter. The waiver was a crucial piece of evidence used by the prosecution.