Liability Waivers

[scuba2you]

I'm wondering how the community feels in regard to more and more onerous Liability Waivers. Before I demonstrate my case, let me say that I completely support liability waivers, every owner/operator/company has a right to protect themselves from Joe Diver and the herd of lawyers looking for a money grab.

My issue is with a trip I am/was considering and the 20+ waiver clauses were being asked to sign. Two of them in particular seem excessively onerous.

I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE that neither the divemaster/dive supervisor/instructor; nor the crew; nor the owners of the vessel; nor the operator of the vessel, including all of its subsidiaries; nor the vessel itself, nor XXXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXX, Inc., nor its affiliate or subsidiary corporations; nor the owners, officers, directors, shareholders, employees, agents, contractors or assigns of the above listed individuals and/or entities (hereinafter the “Released Parties”) may be held responsible in any way for any personal injury, property damage, wrongful death or other damages to me or my family, estate, heirs or assigns that may occur as a result of my participation in the Cruise and/or associated scuba diving activities, or as a result of the negligence of any party, including the Released Parties, whether passive or active.

I HEREBY EXEMPT AND RELEASE THE RELEASED PARTIES FROM ALL RESPONSIBILITY AND LIABILITY TO MYSELF, MY PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVES, ASSIGNS, HEIRS AND NEXT OF KIN FOR ANY AND ALL LOSS OR DAMAGE, AND ANY CLAIM OF DEMANDS THEREOF ON ACCOUNT OF INJURY TO MY PERSON OR PROPERTY OR RESULTING IN MY DEATH, NOW AND FOREVER, ARRISING OUT OF RELATED TO MY PARTICIPATION IN THE CRUSE AND IN ANY DIVING ACTIVITIES THAT MAY OCCUR, WHETHER SUCH LOSS OR DAMAGE BE CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASED PARTIES OR OTHERWISE. _______ I HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT INJURIES RECEIVED MAY BE COMPOUNDED OR INCREASED BY NEGLIGENT RESCUE OPERATIONS OR PROCEDURES OF THE RELEASED PARTIES AND AGREE THAT THIS AGREEMENT EXTENDS TO ALL ACTS OF NEGLIGENCE BY THE RELEASED PARTIES, INCLUDING NEGLIGENT RESCUE OPERATIONS.

I understand this is all driven by lawyers and insurance carriers etc. I also know there are limits on a companies ability to use these waivers to get out of gross negligence court findings, but in my case this company is registered in China so a different rule of law applies....

I'm aware this board has plenty of members that fall into both camps, companies looking for adequate protection and divers looking for companies that at least to me don't look like their trying escape outright
malfeasance.

Maybe I'm just over thinking the whole thing but I'm curious if anyone even cares about this?

 

[chillyinCanada]

I'm wondering how the community feels in regard to more and more onerous Liability Waivers. Before I demonstrate my case, let me say that I completely support liability waivers, every owner/operator/company has a right to protect themselves from Joe Diver and the herd of lawyers looking for a money grab.

My issue is with a trip I am/was considering and the 20+ waiver clauses were being asked to sign. Two of them in particular seem excessively onerous.

I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE that neither the divemaster/dive supervisor/instructor; nor the crew; nor the owners of the vessel; nor the operator of the vessel, including all of its subsidiaries; nor the vessel itself, nor XXXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXX, Inc., nor its affiliate or subsidiary corporations; nor the owners, officers, directors, shareholders, employees, agents, contractors or assigns of the above listed individuals and/or entities (hereinafter the “Released Parties”) may be held responsible in any way for any personal injury, property damage, wrongful death or other damages to me or my family, estate, heirs or assigns that may occur as a result of my participation in the Cruise and/or associated scuba diving activities, or as a result of the negligence of any party, including the Released Parties, whether passive or active.

I HEREBY EXEMPT AND RELEASE THE RELEASED PARTIES FROM ALL RESPONSIBILITY AND LIABILITY TO MYSELF, MY PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVES, ASSIGNS, HEIRS AND NEXT OF KIN FOR ANY AND ALL LOSS OR DAMAGE, AND ANY CLAIM OF DEMANDS THEREOF ON ACCOUNT OF INJURY TO MY PERSON OR PROPERTY OR RESULTING IN MY DEATH, NOW AND FOREVER, ARRISING OUT OF RELATED TO MY PARTICIPATION IN THE CRUSE AND IN ANY DIVING ACTIVITIES THAT MAY OCCUR, WHETHER SUCH LOSS OR DAMAGE BE CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASED PARTIES OR OTHERWISE. _______ I HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT INJURIES RECEIVED MAY BE COMPOUNDED OR INCREASED BY NEGLIGENT RESCUE OPERATIONS OR PROCEDURES OF THE RELEASED PARTIES AND AGREE THAT THIS AGREEMENT EXTENDS TO ALL ACTS OF NEGLIGENCE BY THE RELEASED PARTIES, INCLUDING NEGLIGENT RESCUE OPERATIONS.

I understand this is all driven by lawyers and insurance carriers etc. I also know there are limits on a companies ability to use these waivers to get out of gross negligence court findings, but in my case this company is registered in China so a different rule of law applies....

I'm aware this board has plenty of members that fall into both camps, companies looking for adequate protection and divers looking for companies that at least to me don't look like their trying escape outright
malfeasance.

Maybe I'm just over thinking the whole thing but I'm curious if anyone even cares about this?

Personally, I don't. I can't bind my family whether the waiver says so or not.

Do you know anything about the boat? Maybe they already have a great reputation? Where are you going to dive? Are the conditions wild or benign?

 

[clownfishsydney]

In Australia they are not really worth the paper they are printed on, you cannot sign away your legal rights like this.

 

[Julius SCHMIDT]

a trip I am/was considering

Is this really the headspace in which you have placed yourself
Just devote your mind to diving a path through that bombardment of negligences

 

[Edward3c]

Having done a quick Google search on negligence in Thailand. These forms appear to be pretty worthless, if the actions were illegal the operator has to prove they were not at fault.

But like any case at a holiday destination. Are you prepared to return to state your case in court.

 

[Wookie]

Seems to me if you want to ride, you’re gonna sign. I had more than one refuse to sign or try to change the form at the dock. They didn’t ride. What the form has no bearing on that, it’s part of the price of admission.

 

[scuba2you]

Seems to me if you want to ride, you’re gonna sign. I had more than one refuse to sign or try to change the form at the dock. They didn’t ride. What the form has no bearing on that, it’s part of the price of admission.

Clearly this is the case, those decisions are out of their hands. It's all in the terms set by their risk insurance carriers, I guess my real issue is the continuous evolution of these agreements. But your response is spot on....

I have a number of boats and shops in this part of the world I will not use due to poor operations & management etc, in this case the outfit has a very good reputation. The boats I usually take are highly rated international's class operators but I double checked their agreements and they don't contain clauses this onerous.

Not many people back out over these agreements, so I guess until they do we all keep signing away.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

I choose boats I trust and I sign the waivers. I don’t even read them closely. If anything crosses the line into criminal negligence the waiver won’t help them. Anything short of that I’m diving at my own risk and I wouldn’t go after them if something happens. I’ve asked my wife to follow those same guidelines if I don’t survive.

 

[scuba2you]

Personally, I don't. I can't bind my family whether the waiver says so or not.

Do you know anything about the boat? Maybe they already have a great reputation? Where are you going to dive? Are the conditions wild or benign?

They do have a good reputation and I'm not really worried about anything dive related. It's more a matter of principle, the kind that gets me agitated, probably not a good topic for exploration since there is nothing we can do about it anyway. It's a long story but in my previous life I had an ability to push back on lawyers and Insurance carriers when they infringed on good business policy regarding customers. But here it's a fragmented industry and no one has the clout to push back, so I guess we will continue to drink from the firehose of liability clauses.

 

[chillyinCanada]

They do have a good reputation and I'm not really worried about anything dive related. It's more a matter of principle, the kind that gets me agitated, probably not a good topic for exploration since there is nothing we can do about it anyway. It's a long story but in my previous life I had an ability to push back on lawyers and Insurance carriers when they infringed on good business policy regarding customers. But here it's a fragmented industry and no one has the clout to push back, so I guess we will continue to drink from the firehose of liability clauses.

It's for their ease of mind, not yours anyway.