Liability Waivers

[scuba2you]

It's for their ease of mind, not yours anyway.

Heh...right

 

[kelemvor]

I'm wondering how the community feels in regard to more and more onerous Liability Waivers. Before I demonstrate my case, let me say that I completely support liability waivers, every owner/operator/company has a right to protect themselves from Joe Diver and the herd of lawyers looking for a money grab.

My issue is with a trip I am/was considering and the 20+ waiver clauses were being asked to sign. Two of them in particular seem excessively onerous.

I UNDERSTAND AND AGREE that neither the divemaster/dive supervisor/instructor; nor the crew; nor the owners of the vessel; nor the operator of the vessel, including all of its subsidiaries; nor the vessel itself, nor XXXXXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXXXX, Inc., nor its affiliate or subsidiary corporations; nor the owners, officers, directors, shareholders, employees, agents, contractors or assigns of the above listed individuals and/or entities (hereinafter the “Released Parties”) may be held responsible in any way for any personal injury, property damage, wrongful death or other damages to me or my family, estate, heirs or assigns that may occur as a result of my participation in the Cruise and/or associated scuba diving activities, or as a result of the negligence of any party, including the Released Parties, whether passive or active.

I HEREBY EXEMPT AND RELEASE THE RELEASED PARTIES FROM ALL RESPONSIBILITY AND LIABILITY TO MYSELF, MY PERSONAL REPRESENTATIVES, ASSIGNS, HEIRS AND NEXT OF KIN FOR ANY AND ALL LOSS OR DAMAGE, AND ANY CLAIM OF DEMANDS THEREOF ON ACCOUNT OF INJURY TO MY PERSON OR PROPERTY OR RESULTING IN MY DEATH, NOW AND FOREVER, ARRISING OUT OF RELATED TO MY PARTICIPATION IN THE CRUSE AND IN ANY DIVING ACTIVITIES THAT MAY OCCUR, WHETHER SUCH LOSS OR DAMAGE BE CAUSED BY THE NEGLIGENCE OF THE RELEASED PARTIES OR OTHERWISE. _______ I HEREBY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT INJURIES RECEIVED MAY BE COMPOUNDED OR INCREASED BY NEGLIGENT RESCUE OPERATIONS OR PROCEDURES OF THE RELEASED PARTIES AND AGREE THAT THIS AGREEMENT EXTENDS TO ALL ACTS OF NEGLIGENCE BY THE RELEASED PARTIES, INCLUDING NEGLIGENT RESCUE OPERATIONS.

I understand this is all driven by lawyers and insurance carriers etc. I also know there are limits on a companies ability to use these waivers to get out of gross negligence court findings, but in my case this company is registered in China so a different rule of law applies....

I'm aware this board has plenty of members that fall into both camps, companies looking for adequate protection and divers looking for companies that at least to me don't look like their trying escape outright
malfeasance.

Maybe I'm just over thinking the whole thing but I'm curious if anyone even cares about this?

I don't like it but as others have said, if you want a ride you have to sign. It doesn't absolve them if they are negligent... or maybe grossly negligent? I'm not sure, I've seen it explained in other threads by those that are in the know on legal boatie issues. Also, you can't sign away someone else's rights so that part of the contract is just there to scare someone away from hiring a lawyer. Once they hired a lawyer, he would explain it to them.

This is one of those things that is a result of scammers taking advantage of our legal system in the US. I'm all for suing someone if they really do something bad and injure/kill you. But if you do something dumb and injure/kill yourself the boat people shouldn't be hung out to dry.

So.. sign the waiver, or buy your own boat, or don't dive, or move to Venice Beach.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

I don't like it but as others have said, if you want a ride you have to sign. It doesn't absolve them if they are negligent... or maybe grossly negligent? I'm not sure, I've seen it explained in other threads by those that are in the know on legal boatie issues. Also, you can't sign away someone else's rights so that part of the contract is just there to scare someone away from hiring a lawyer. Once they hired a lawyer, he would explain it to them.

This is one of those things that is a result of scammers taking advantage of our legal system in the US. I'm all for suing someone if they really do something bad and injure/kill you. But if you do something dumb and injure/kill yourself the boat people shouldn't be hung out to dry.

So.. sign the waiver, or buy your own boat, or don't dive, or move to Venice Beach.

Lauderdale-by-the-Sea or Singer Island (BHB) would be a much better choice unless you like muck diving for old, black teeth.

Joking aside there is a sizeable population of South FL beach divers who do exactly this ... beach dive exclusively. It's not a bad way to go!!

 

[kelemvor]

Lauderdale-by-the-Sea or Singer Island (BHB) would be a much better choice unless you like muck diving for old, black teeth.

Joking aside there is a sizeable population of South FL beach divers who do exactly this ... beach dive exclusively. It's not a bad way to go!!

Ok, yeah, BHB is top notch. How could I have forgotten? I've dove LBTS a few times, was not impressed at all. I do like the fact that they close the road off and allow you to drink in public. LBTS is the only place I've had to hold my head in shame and tell a bartender that a drink was too strong. In retrospect, I should have just ordered a coke and mixed 'em.

What other shore dives are worth doing? I've been kicking around a hammerhead dive off Indian Rocks beach, but so far haven't brought myself to do it.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

Ok, yeah, BHB is top notch. How could I have forgotten? I've dove LBTS a few times, was not impressed at all. I do like the fact that they close the road off and allow you to drink in public. LBTS is the only place I've had to hold my head in shame and tell a bartender that a drink was too strong. In retrospect, I should have just ordered a coke and mixed 'em.

What other shore dives are worth doing? I've been kicking around a hammerhead dive off Indian Rocks beach, but so far haven't brought myself to do it.

There are shore dives from LBTS all the way north to Jupiter. Pompano has some good ones as does Boca, Delray, Boynton. It all depends upon the conditions but cool stuff to see if you know where to look. Hook up with one of the shops that does ALOT of local shore diving (Force-E Pompano or Gold Coast Scuba in LBTS) to get the lowdown on all of the sites.

I don't want to sidetrack the thread. My key point is that there is a population of divers in South FL that does shore dives almost exclusively. Free apart from a fill and possibly parking and NO LIABILITY RELEASES!

 

[formernuke]

First day of civil procedures class do you know what you learn..... waivers aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

I have no problem signing them but I laugh inside every time I do.

 

[chillyinCanada]

First day of civil procedures class do you know what you learn..... waivers aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

I have no problem signing them but I laugh inside every time I do.

Me too, a little bit.

 

[greeniguana]

First day of civil procedures class do you know what you learn..... waivers aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

I have no problem signing them but I laugh inside every time I do.

Yep. Liability waivers and non-compete agreements. I sign them all with a smile.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

First day of civil procedures class do you know what you learn..... waivers aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

I have no problem signing them but I laugh inside every time I do.

Yep. Liability waivers and non-compete agreements. I sign them all with a smile.

I hear you both and I don't necessarily disagree entirely ... BUT .. it depends upon the local state law. There is a local quarry I used to dive in the Midwest. I am personally aware of several incidents that occurred there (not fatal but injury related) and the injured party sought legal council regarding suing them for damages. They were told by several lawyers that due to (1) their signature on the liability release and (2) laws in that state that they really had no case and it wasn't worth the money to bring the lawsuit. In this state and at this site the liability release absolutely was worth the paper it was printed on.

 

[formernuke]

I hear you both and I don't necessarily disagree entirely ... BUT .. it depends upon the local state law. There is a local quarry I used to dive in the Midwest. I am personally aware of several incidents that occurred there (not fatal but injury related) and the injured party sought legal council regarding suing them for damages. They were told by several lawyers that due to (1) their signature on the liability release and (2) laws in that state that they really had no case and it wasn't worth the money to bring the lawsuit.

More than likely he didn't want to tell them the injuries were because of the parties own fault not the quarries negligence.

If the quarries had done something negligence or reckless they can be sued no matter what you sign.