Liability of Agencies for their instructors??

[scubadada]

Hi @NothingClever

Can you give an example of how your recommendations would work on SB? Specific topic, pertinent data extraction, analysis, conclusions.

 

[NothingClever]

I think some people are more comfortable in jacket BC’s and not everyone can use DIR compliant fins. Does that mean they should be denied high quality training?

Completely fair and reasonable question and I think the only right answer is everyone deserves access to high quality training.

I don't subscribe to the school of thought that GUE is the only answer.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Completely fair and reasonable question and I think the only right answer is everyone deserves access to high quality training.

I don't subscribe to the school of thought that GUE is the only answer.

This topic almost deserves another dedicated thread.
I would love to see the agencies step up and offer a premium OW course for those willing that have the time and the money. Right now it seems you either pick a run of the mill style abbreviated course from one of the ABC agencies (slightly better for a local course), or you pick GUE.
There’s nothing in between.
Well, there might be something in between from some super instructor somewhere, but that is very vague and borders on mythology. We see the threads here all the time on how to pick an instructor that’s good. Instructors should already be vetted and proven, and someone needs to oversee that.
I would like to see this as an optional standard, not unicorn lore.
The problem right now as I see it is there isn’t enough time in the day to teach enough skills to set these new divers free into the wild with enough information and confidence to know what to do in the event of any given mishap without a total panic. The culture right now is to crank out as many new divers as possible with bare minimum skills. I blame the vacation/resort setting for this, where most divers explore diving and get their certifications. It’s really a catch 22. They are taught barely enough to not die, but not enough to be comfortable and confident.
Then when stats come in everyone says that it’s not that bad. But that doesn’t tell you how many people decided not to dive anymore after their initial exposure because they were paranoid wrecks. Those people removed themselves from the pool of statistics.
Diving is not growing.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Completely fair and reasonable question and I think the only right answer is everyone deserves access to high quality training.

I don't subscribe to the school of thought that GUE is the only answer.

The question is, do we want to maintain the status quo or not?

There are those who are adamant that there is no problem.

These two camps are likely to never agree.

There are those, including myself, who see a big problem in the quality of instruction overall.

I would love to see the agencies step up and offer a premium OW course for those willing that have the time and the money.

That's NEVER going to happen as that would be an admission of their bare bones course is substandard. Gone would be the argument that being trained on the knees is as good as neutrally buoyant, as both meet standards.

Right now it seems you either pick a run of the mill style abbreviated course from one of the ABC agencies (slightly better for a local course), or you pick GUE.
There’s nothing in between.

There's RAID and NASE. Those are the only WRSTC members that I know of that require courses to be taught neutrally buoyant within a depth window. RAID also has trim requirements. Can't speak about NASE, but @The Chairman can. If I have missed any agencies, someone please let me know.

Well, there might be something in between from some super instructor somewhere, but that is very vague and borders on mythology. We see the threads here all the time on how to pick an instructor that’s good. Instructors should already be vetted and proven, and someone needs to oversee that.
I would like to see this as an optional standard, not unicorn lore.
The problem right now as I see it is there isn’t enough time in the day to teach enough skills to set these new divers free into the wild with enough information and confidence to know what to do in the event of any given mishap without a total panic. The culture right now is to crank out as many new divers as possible with bare minimum skills. I blame the vacation/resort setting for this, where most divers explore diving and get their certifications. It’s really a catch 22. They are taught barely enough to not die, but not enough to be comfortable and confident.
Then when stats come in everyone says that it’s not that bad. But that doesn’t tell you how many people decided not to dive anymore after their initial exposure because they were paranoid wrecks. Those people removed themselves from the pool of statistics.

Absolute agree.

Diving is not growing.

And it won't as there is too much resistance to any change. FFS, how long did John co-write that article on moving to neutral buoyancy? And the industry has moved how far? It is a joke. This is diving, not brain surgery. It isn't hard to weigh students properly and distribute weight for trim. But asking for that small amount of effort and knowledge is asking too much.

Agencies have a hole in the bottom of their boats and they just use buckets to bail the water out. There is no effort being made to plug the hole.

 

[NothingClever]

Can you give an example of how your recommendations would work on SB?

I think my explanation above was clear enough. I'm OK if you don't understand it.

Specific topic, pertinent data extraction, analysis, conclusions.

When Thomas Jefferson fielded the initial proposals and then approved the dispatch of the Corps of Discovery to find the Northwest Passage, he didn't reduce the broad exploratory objectives and guidance to questions about how they were going to navigate a particular stretch of terrain or set up an encampment. He was comfortable that the strategic objectives and the team members' spirit of scientific exploration would appropriately drive the affairs of the team.

Looking for the specifics you cited right up front seems like needle-d*cking.

 

[NothingClever]

This topic almost deserves another dedicated thread.
I would love to see the agencies step up and offer a premium OW course for those willing that have the time and the money. Right now it seems you either pick a run of the mill style abbreviated course from one of the ABC agencies (slightly better for a local course), or you pick GUE.
There’s nothing in between.
Well, there might be something in between from some super instructor somewhere, but that is very vague and borders on mythology. We see the threads here all the time on how to pick an instructor that’s good. Instructors should already be vetted and proven, and someone needs to oversee that.
I would like to see this as an optional standard, not unicorn lore.
The problem right now as I see it is there isn’t enough time in the day to teach enough skills to set these new divers free into the wild with enough information and confidence to know what to do in the event of any given mishap without a total panic. The culture right now is to crank out as many new divers as possible with bare minimum skills. I blame the vacation/resort setting for this, where most divers explore diving and get their certifications. It’s really a catch 22. They are taught barely enough to not die, but not enough to be comfortable and confident.
Then when stats come in everyone says that it’s not that bad. But that doesn’t tell you how many people decided not to dive anymore after their initial exposure because they were paranoid wrecks. Those people removed themselves from the pool of statistics.
Diving is not growing.

I think a core problem is now that certifying organizations have disaggregated legacy courses that formerly required a much greater commitment from customers (and we're not likely to get the genie back in the bottle) and there is a recurring trend of disappointment in customers with the quality of training they receive, how can ScubaBoard serve in some capacity to more deliberately bring attention to the problem and provide recommendations that compel positive change?

Perhaps more succinctly, how can ScubaBoard team with the Business of Diving Institute to bring about positive change in the industry?

 

[The Chairman]

Those are the only WRSTC members that I know of that require courses to be taught neutrally buoyant within a depth window. RAID also has trim requirements. Can't speak about NASE, but @The Chairman can. If I have missed any agencies, someone please let me know.

It's my opinion that quality control at NASE is pretty lax. The director who came up with those standards doesn't work for them any longer. I don't think they're too active, but I could be wrong. In any event, I stopped teaching a few years back, so I'm not up to speed on them anymore. Trim was always a function of Neutral buoyancy when I taught. Without it, you can't really be neutral all the time. IOW, you can't effectively teach one without the other.

 

[NothingClever]

For the record, I'm perfectly OK if the industry goes through a major correction, certifying organizations go out of business and the survivors re-vamp their organizational objectives, procedures and culture. For the United States, this is within tolerance of our economic system. For the economic systems of other countries where the certifying organziations are doing business, it's only fair to expect the certifying organizations to break a sweat in working to minimize impacts on those markets.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I think a core problem is now that certifying organizations have disaggregated legacy courses that formerly required a much greater commitment from customers (and we're not likely to get the genie back in the bottle) and there is a recurring trend of disappointment in customers with the quality of training they receive, how can ScubaBoard serve in some capacity to more deliberately bring attention to the problem and provide recommendations that compel positive change?

Perhaps more succinctly, how can ScubaBoard team with the Business of Diving Institute to bring about positive change in the industry?

How can scubaboard help bring attention to this deficit? I don’t know that they/we can.
What is the percentage of divers world wide who go on scubaboard either active or inactive? Not a lot.
Mostly it’s just a bunch of windbags like us complaining about how terrible current training is and how people are getting screwed and not wanting to continue because they were undertrained and don’t feel comfortable.
I think to be a mover and shaker, instead of bitching about the problem, you have to lead by example and even start your own agency and work your butt off to make it run and get a following.
How did GUE start, from thin air? How did any of them start?
Generally, someone sees a need and attempts to fill that void by starting a business or organization and they chase their vision.
Complaining about bad ABC agency watered down training might be fun but it’s not going to change anything. That will happen independently from the outside.
At least it’s still a free market industry with no government intervention, so that’s good.

 

[The Chairman]

What is the percentage of divers world wide who go on scubaboard either active or inactive? Not a lot.
Mostly it’s just a bunch of windbags

There is a huge difference between those who post and those who lurk. Those who lurk are here only to research.