Let The revolution Begin!

[IndigoBlue]

I can't take credit for the session idea - look in this thread and you will see the original suggestion by O-4 - the idea is his - but it makes sense. We kicked it around over an hour SI the other day and refined it to the point that it makes a LOT of sense.

I got the idea for modularization from and old NAUI instructor who teaches in Southern California. He uses the classroom, pool, ocean, classroom, pool, ocean modular plan over several weeks of training. I read his posts on the internet site out there that he posts on.

The agency truly is only a framework. Everything depends on the individual instructor and his/her personal motivation to teach. It takes more time to do it that way, and for the same market-driven price, you end up donating time to the students, to get the job done right.

On the other hand, I abhore mass-produced basic O/W divers. But that is how many instructors make more money, for less time invested. The problem is then, however, that these neophites are then unsafe to themselves and to their buddies, until they get the experience they need in the school of hard knocks, or until they drop out of diving.

 

[dweeb]

Let's postulate a few things....

1. Nobody is going to pay more unless they "get more". You have to convince a person intending to learn to dive that they will "get more", or you will fail at getting them to pay more (both in money and time) over the "standard" 3-day wonder courses.

2. The value equation must be concrete and obvious to the prospective student. You simply cannot sell "good trim", because a student doesn't know why that matters until AFTER they learn how to dive!
.
.
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Why is this important? Because our OW card will be the equivalent of an AOW and Nitrox!

Now you have the "value" proposition.

Actually, you don't. Ask yourself, what is the value of these
extra credentials? To what additional benefits/privileges do they provide access?

All questions regarding whether more rigorous training is desirable (I believe it is) aside, the sad fact is that most 'customers' for dive training are trend-chasing lemmings looking to get the box on their "experience ticket" that says 'diving' punched, so the next time the subject comes up at the local sportsbar, they will have the social currency of being able say "been there, done that." For this, all they need is access to diving in general, which doesn't even require a one-weekend OW course, thanks to PADI's resort course. This is why fewer than 10% of newly certified divers go on to take further training.

The carrot is access to diving - the ability to walk into a
dive shop or charter business, and present a credential that
will get them to sell/rent gear and take one on the boat - to most consumers, nothing else matters. Nitrox, AOW, all these
things have meaning only to those strange folks who actually make diving a bigger part of their life than a quick stop on the way to trying out the next A-list recreational trend, and they typically see value in thorough training already.

To make the typical consumer see value in rigorous and thorough training, you have to set it up as a general barrier to entry for any and all access to diving, which would take much more than just setting up a new agency.

 

[TTSkipper]

Class size is an issue with mass produced divers as well

I am not an instructor or DM so I am not sure if there are guidelines for class size or student-Instructor/DM ratios, but I can see how some large classes will quickly lead to poor diver education. Even with a good ratio, there is stall a chance of a more timid student in a larger class who will be less likely to ask a question with a large group around. One of the reasons I got my open water at the school where I did is because they limit the class to 6 divers at a time. When we were in class we were all able to ask any questions we felt needed to be asked, when we were in the pool there were at least 2 DM's in the water with the instructor so it was pretty much one Instructor/DM per buddy pair, during the checkout dives it was about the same.

TTSkipper

 

[Genesis]

The carrot is access to diving - the ability to walk into a
dive shop or charter business, and present a credential that
will get them to sell/rent gear and take one on the boat - to most consumers, nothing else matters. Nitrox, AOW, all these
things have meaning only to those strange folks who actually make diving a bigger part of their life than a quick stop on the way to trying out the next A-list recreational trend, and they typically see value in thorough training already.

To make the typical consumer see value in rigorous and thorough training, you have to set it up as a general barrier to entry for any and all access to diving, which would take much more than just setting up a new agency.

An increasing number of charter operators are requiring AOW cards to go to the "cool" places (e.g. the SG) and if you actually would like to spend some time there, you need the Nitrox card as well.

This is why bundling those things is important. The Dry Suit is important because if you want to dive any of the charters north of Florida, you will want one and again, without the card nobody will rent you one.

 

[GDI]

Quality will outsell quantity. One of the basic principles of business is to find a niche that no one else has be it a product or service. Word of mouth is the best form of advertising. Once you have your product or service, it must demonstrate a desired quality and then word of mouth will sell it. The scuba industry as a whole would need to know that a particular agency's single c-card would equate to several other cards from the other agencies. One can always sell the present agencies (PADI, NAUI, SSi, etc) certifications as a muti course package but then the overall general standards would be the same. The particular agency (single card) would also be noted for having higher standards - not an easy task but not a impossible one

 

[newdiverAZ]

don't really wanna stir the pot, but the format of this proposed class doesn't vary much from padi's. Thru padi you can do the same thing by taking aow and specialties right after OW. Granted you may not end up with the greatest instructor, but then again you may. It is totally up to the student to make the choice to get better, I did, my regular dive buddy did. It's all about mentality.

 

[newdiverAZ]

Quality will outsell quantity. One of the basic principles of business is to find a niche that no one else has be it a product or service. Word of mouth is the best form of advertising. Once you have your product or service, it must demonstrate a desired quality and then word of mouth will sell it. The scuba industry as a whole would need to know that a particular agency's single c-card would equate to several other cards from the other agencies. One can always sell the present agencies (PADI, NAUI, SSi, etc) certifications as a muti course package but then the overall general standards would be the same. The particular agency (single card) would also be noted for having higher standards - not an easy task but not a impossible one

This quote is a lil confusing. I agree that quality SHOULD outsell quantity but it doesn't anymore. Let me ask you if you have a choice to buy a 3,000 sq. ft.
house for the same price as an 1,000 sq. ft house, same neighborhood identical lots. Which would you buy? Even though the quality of the 3,000 sq. ft house is bad people still buy them like they're goin out of style. Me personally I prefer quality, but I'm a craftsman and would love to see quality prevail, but I'm not seeing the trend lean this way.

 

[wreckchick]

I've said it before, Mike Ferrara has said it... there is nothing wrong with the current course standards for a basic OW diver. The problem is the instruction can be crappy and there's no way to know what you got until it's too late.

A really comprehensive class like the one suggested in this thread would be great for all of us that take our diving seriously and wish to travel back in time and do it right the first time (pun only slightly intended). It's hard enough to convince people that they need to do more than discover scuba before they go out and dive next vacation.

Drysuit? After my check out dives I was dancing in the car with the heater on full blast that I wouldn't ever have to do that again. It didn't work out quite that way for me but I had NO intention of diving cold water again. Most people don't dive north of the Caribbean.

If there is to be a major shift in diving education, I'd much rather see an impartial evaluation of student skills to get the OW card to begin with. Maybe if the instructor wasn't the one judging his/her own students competency, there would be some pressure to actually teach the classes, not just put check marks in little boxes. Making the class modular would most certainly allow students to progress at their own paces.

I know the flying comparison has been drawn many, many times; but I'm gonna do it again. I used to work at a flight school and when people were thinking about signing up for lessons, we told them the minimum number of flight hours they had to have for their licenses and what the average was. We gave them reasons why some people got done faster or slower and how they could help themselves get through in a manner that was comfortable to them. The written tests are administered by people not affiliated with the flight school; the flight test is administered by someone not affiliated with the flight school. There was no fudging, no credit for having done it last week just fine, either you could perform or not. We didn't care if you racked up flight hours and never took the test. The school was there to allow the students to learn, not coddle them through the exams.

Compared to starting up a new agency to fufill a need only perceived by certified divers is pretty extreme compared to making some modifications to the current process.

</rant>

Rachel

 

[Genesis]

I've said it before, Mike Ferrara has said it... there is nothing wrong with the current course standards for a basic OW diver. The problem is the instruction can be crappy and there's no way to know what you got until it's too late.

......

Drysuit? After my check out dives I was dancing in the car with the heater on full blast that I wouldn't ever have to do that again. It didn't work out quite that way for me but I had NO intention of diving cold water again. Most people don't dive north of the Caribbean.

You might change your mind (and so might lots of others!) if they weren't freezing their butts off on their first dives.

I thought diving was a warm-water (defined: 80F and above) sport until I got my first drysuit. Now I quite frankly don't care how cold the water is; I just set up my insulation to fit. No problem.

There is a HUGE part of the realm of diving you will never see or do if you confine yourself to Florida in the summer, or the Caribbean.

If there is to be a major shift in diving education, I'd much rather see an impartial evaluation of student skills to get the OW card to begin with.

The existing agencies will never agree to this. Nor will they ever agree to actually have real standards that are objective and can be measured.

I know the flying comparison has been drawn many, many times; but I'm gonna do it again.

Its not a license, and it had better never become one. A pilot's license is a license, which is how they get away with "impartial" testing. Ditto for a driver license. I will throw all of my resources behind insuring that there is never a diving license.

Compared to starting up a new agency to fufill a need only perceived by certified divers is pretty extreme compared to making some modifications to the current process.

</rant>

Rachel

I am convinced that you cannot get where you want to go within the current agency framework. I believe it would be vastly more difficult to get the current agencies to reform (possibly requiring - literally - a mass die-off of the entire titular and corporate hierarchy of ALL of those agencies) than to simply bypass them in the quest to solve this problem.

 

[BlueDolphin]

As a new diver.... I think you are on to something. A "good" something.

Lets see some price per sessions. I will likely be employing Neil to cover some of the very training sessions noted here. But I think that there are lots of divers out there.... that need just what is being talked about here. Perhaps it could be said that the courses may mirror some of the PADI courses..... but I think a differing logic applied to the courses is very appealing. Not geared to the mom and pop rec divers who just got certified for that trip to Hawaii. But rather for the rec diver who truly wants to learn more and further their diving skills. And touch the edge of tech diving.

As noted..... I paid $3500 for pilot training. Would I pay more for my diving skills to be furthered..... you betcha. And I think many others would as well.
I very much like the idea of training, with a tech diving edge to it. I also like the idea of the courses running "together". Same instructor's same mindsets, etc..

ALL the courses laid out and presented at the same time. Sign me up.

Sort of a DIR training.... without the elusiveness of said (never know where to go for training).