Legalities of VIP inspections/ Inspectors

[PhilEllis]

Then PM or post the references of the required VIP laws and the DOT and interstate regulations and CFRs that require a private individual to have a VIP on their tank before they can trasport it in their personal vehicle.

If I quoted you or took you out of context I apologise. See Oxyhackers post, Captains posts in addition. I mean, it is possible you are wrong or as well that I am misunderstanding. I think I am going with Oxyhacker on this because I have read the regulations and I am not finding the laws you guys seem to refer to.

N

I never mentioned the existence or lack of existence of any federal or state criminal laws, CFR's or any CRIMINAL statute regarding hydros, VIP stickers, scuba store visual inspections, or any other thing related to federal statutes or CRIMINAL laws. I spoke ONLY to the potential CIVIL liability to which a person, posing as a professional, might be subject. The original poster asked about INSURANCE, POTENTIAL LIABILITY, and the advisability of ACTING IN THE ROLE OF A TRAINED VIP INSPECTOR. The discussion morphed into the standard discussion as to the CFR's related to hydro inspection.

My only mention of hydro inspection was to attempt to explain the difference between the visual inspection performed prior to the expansion test performed every 5 years and the VIP inspection done in the scuba industry. I never said there was any law mandating the VIP inspection. I DID SAY that acting IN ANY PROFESSIONAL ROLE exposes an individual to potential civil liability and the cost of proving oneself innocent in such a situation. Tienuts, who I believe is a civil attorney, chimed in and stated that he believes (and probably has real, tangible evidence) an individual who performs, or fails to perform any duty according to prevailing standards of care, is subject to civil liability.

Read the original post....that is what I was responding to. It is about CIVIL LIABILITY. If you don't think there are 10,000's of thousands of pages relating to this in the tort law statutes in your state, and every other state, you are misinformed. Is someone likely to get sued for inspecting a cylinder incorrectly? Probably not. The original poster did not ask us about the statistical probability of being sued and I didn't answer the question he didn't ask.

Phil Ellis

 

[Nemrod]

Phil, I don't like to pick nits and create problems that don't exist. I understand what you are saying now, thank you for clarifying. I see your points especially regarding industry practices and professional exposure.

I am leaving in a few moments to go pick up four of my tanks from the LDS, it took them the usual three weeks. I like to toss them a bone every now and then and pay them for a service or buy something from them. This was my monthly patronage---lol.

N

 

[PhilEllis]

Phil, I don't like to pick nits and create problems that don't exist. I understand what you are saying now, thank you for clarifying. I see your points especially regarding industry practices and professional exposure.

I am leaving in a few moments to go pick up four of my tanks from the LDS, it took them the usual three weeks. I like to toss them a bone every now and then and pay them for a service or buy something from them. This was my monthly patronage---lol.

N

And if it helps, I apologize for you have to wait THREE WEEKS for any service in the scuba industry. Too bad you aren't close to me. We don't do it that way.

Phil Ellis

 

[Bowtie22]

This conversation has definitely morphed from civil liabilities from VIP's and the inspector’s dong them...... but since it went on the Hydro topic I would have to agree with Oxyhacker and my guy on the issue of transporting cylinders. I will say that the biggest issue with any DOT regs, NHTSA regs, CFR's, state laws, etc. they are always open for interpretation and that interpretation will vary from one court to the next and from one attorney to the next. That is why the laws and regs are so difficult to decipher now because they try to add on constantly in attempts to clarify however it usually results in more confusion and more interpretations.

 

[pescador775]

To every individual.


The federal law is prior to an individual right in this case.

You can move the tanks anywhere in your back yard, but LEGALLY (LITERALLY) can't hit a public road. The same logic applies to your car. You can drive your car in your back yard without a registration, but NOT on the public road. That is, the federal doesn't care if you are exploded with the tank in your back yard or not, just NOT in the public property.

1. There is no truth whatsoever, to the above quote. Even the vehicle registration thing is off a bit as any farmer can transport a vehicle without registration provided the vehicle is intended for farm use. Same for antique vehicles.
2. Thanks, Hacker for the inter/intra clarification.
3. Talk about VIP's (EOI) and "civil law" is crap. There is no such law.
4. As to civil liability, that is what insurance is for. Discuss it with your agent.
5. I like my coffee hot.
Hope this helps,
Pesky

 

[Bowtie22]

I am glad to see that we can all get along .....

I would be furiousif it took 3 weeks for my tanks to be serviced.... I can get my VIP's done in about 1 day and my hydros take abot a week only because they can't do it in house....

 

[PhilEllis]

1. There is no truth whatsoever, to the above quote. Even the vehicle registration thing is off a bit as any farmer can transport a vehicle without registration provided the vehicle is intended for farm use. Same for antique vehicles.
2. Thanks, Hacker for the inter/intra clarification.
3. Talk about VIP's (EOI) and "civil law" is crap. There is no such law.
4. As to civil liability, that is what insurance is for. Discuss it with your agent.
5. I like my coffee hot.
Hope this helps,
Pesky

OK, I surrender.

Phil Ellis

 

[oxyhacker]

I'm 99% sure he's wrong about this, but I am too lazy to back it up with references this afternoon. A commercial shipment is a commercial shipment regardless of size or vehicle weight or ownership (as long as the tanks are not empty). If the diveshop employee throws a rental tank into his private car, and brings it to a student, then that is almost certainly "shipment in commerce". However, if the diver then puts the rented tank in his car and drives somewhere, then it isn't.

The big number in transporting HP cylinders is 1000 lbs (which includes the weight of both the tanks and contents). Above that, the operation has to be set up as a licensed hazmat transporter, which means license endorsements, hazmat training, placarding, manifests, drug testing, the whole shooting match. But if a commercial shipment is below that, it is still considered a commercial shipment if the tanks are being transported as part of a commercial venture. So the tanks still need to be in hydro, and properly filled.

There are a bunch of other laws and regulations that overlap a bit - the DOT reg applying to truckers, and OSHA safety regs. But the above is the one most relevant to diveshop transport.

I asked him about a dive shop pulling their dive shop trailer using the dive shops vehicle to the local quarry carrying 60 SCUBA tanks all out of Hydros. He said that unless the vehicle is over 10,001lbs (truck, trailer and load combined" that it does not matter and it does not classify as a "commercial vehicle" under DOT regulations.

He entertained the possibility that a LDS vehicle and trailer was over the combined total of 10,001lbs. He said that it will then fall under DOT regulations and restrictions. He said that the driver would have to possess a commercial drivers license, he said that all of the contents of the trailer would then be subject to inspection and that if the SCUBA cylinders were over a certain weight (he is researching the exact weight for transporting non combustible gas cylinders) that then the trailer would have to be placarded and all of the cylinders would be required to have a current Hydro stamp on each of them. He did say that if it was under that weight that the tanks would still need a current Hydro stamp on them ONLY BECAUSE THE VEHICLE AND TRAILER COMBO WAS OVER THE 10,001LBS AND COMMERCIAL VEHICLE LAWS APPLIED.
Sorry that this post turned into a novel.

 

[mike_s]

The big number in transporting HP cylinders is 1000 lbs (which includes the weight of both the tanks and contents). Above that, the operation has to be set up as a licensed hazmat transporter, which means license endorsements, hazmat training, placarding, manifests, drug testing, the whole shooting match.
.

So... an AL80 weights 31.38 pounds empty (w/o) valve. So lets say 33 pounds with valve (empty). A luxfer AL80 is 4.4+ empty and -1.4 full, so that's 5.8 pounds for air.
That would make an AL80 weigh a total of 38.8 pounds full. (from that math, but it's late and I'm not going out to the garage with a garden scale to weight one at 10:30pm to confirm...).


how would that be 26 tanks to put a "commercial operator" over 1,000 pounds of High Pressure Hazmat.

I would say that could easily be done by any LDS teaching a class of 10 people (plus one instructor and 2 dive-master/assistants) assuming they use 2 tanks per day.


But my question I'm getting to here is how does that rule/requirement go with commercial dive boat operators?

I mean most dive boats (that aren't 6 packs) routinely carry more than 13 divers (on good days), each with 2 tanks on average.


Since DOT requirements should cover all DOT transportation means, why not dive boats?

As a note, you have to declare HAZMAT on shipping containers that go on ships, and on airplanes and be permitted/licensed to carry it.... so why not on dive boats also?


just something to think about...

 

[Nemrod]

It is 10,000 pounds, I think the 1,000 was a typo??

N