Legalities of VIP inspections/ Inspectors

[Bowtie22]

Wow... A lot of responses in such a short time....

The inspection that I will be conducting for the agency is on our own equipment and maybe, in an unlikely event, another agencies equipment but not an individual's. I work for a county government and we insure ourselves. Besides the County government's insurance I am covered under another private company's insurance as well as the Dept. of Homeland Security depending in what capacity that I am working at that time. I know that within our policy's manual that anything that I do while acting in official capacity comes down to the agency AS LONG AS I AM ACTING IN GOOD FAITH AND THERE IS NO PROOF OF GROSS NEGLIGENCE.

I am not too concerned with that aspect of it as much as conducting VIP's on other dive buddy’s tanks. I certainly see both sides of the coin here with the liability issues. I do think that as long as I was acting in good faith and there is no proof of negligence on my part that I would probably come out fine on a lawsuit but I know that it could be a nightmare in attorney fees unless I represented myself (which in my experience it is always better to have an attorney). I would still rather have insurance to take care of the matter before I was to go crazy and start VIPing everyone’s tanks for them. Honestly I will probably just do my own tanks and the agency's tanks to save me the headache and stress that a lawsuit could bring me and my family.

(Me personally, I would never sue a friend or a shop for that matter as long as it wasn't done intentionally to harm me or someone else and they acted in good faith, and I would roll in my grave if I was died as a result and a family member of mine was to sue)

Does anyone know of any cases regarding a lawsuit like this or does anyone know of anyone that has gotten seriously injured as a result of a bad VIP or a bad hydro for that matter?

James

 

[Hoosier]

Even when doing something for free, you can get sued (and lose).

You can sue me today, but it doesn't mean you have a case as long as your lawyer isn't an ambulance lawyer (mostly lost the case). To sue is to win, not to lose. I don't know your state (IL), but here, an injury lawyer can't get any pennies if they lost, so your laywer should be sure if your subject can be a case.

Does anyone know of any cases regarding a lawsuit like this or does anyone know of anyone that has gotten seriously injured as a result of a bad VIP or a bad hydro for that matter?

James

With the comment above, it isn't easy thing to make and prove the case, either.

VIP lasts one year and we don't know what happened after being inspected. They have to prove it to walk into the court. During VIP course, I have been told about 5~6 explosions (even in hospital), but never heard about a law suit.



Just my 2 bar...

 

[PhilEllis]

Actually, this discussion brings a lot of issue to the front that are worth discussing. One is the difference between the visual inspection done during the course of the DOT mandated 5 year re-qualification of a cylinder and the VIP done during the annual industry-accepted visual inspection of the scuba cylinder.

The visual inspection done at the time of the 5 year re-qualification test is done prior to the hydro inspection to detect any physical damage or defect in the cylinder that that would yield the cylinder unacceptable for submission to the expansion test. I have talked to SEVERAL licensed re-qualification inspectors and all tell me the same thing. So, issues that would impact the quality of air for breathing purposes are not included. In fact, AFTER the visual inspection is performed, the cylinder is filled with water.... often not completely clean water. In some cases, cylinders are improperly dried and cleaned.

The VIP process accepted by the scuba industry is done for dual purposes....detecting a mechanical issue that would make the cylinder unsafe for use and detecting issues that would impact the quality and safety of the air used from that cylinder. While we might find some physical damage during the VIP process, the most common things we find are those issues that make the cylinder less than desired for breathing air service.

There is a LOT of argument about the fact that the LAW doesn't require the VIP performed by professional scuba stores. I honestly don't think it matters. The annual VIP inspection has been around in the scuba industry for years and years. It is nearly impossible to find a professional scuba store that will fill a cylinder without an up-to-date VIP inspection. Why? Because it has become INDUSTRY STANDARD. In a court of law, should an accident occur, the law would deem a proper VIP inspection to be the STANDARD OF CARE that a normal professional would use to ensure the safe use of a scuba cylinder for scuba diving. An attorney defending a professional scuba store who ignored this long-standing, widely accepted, agency-endorsed standard practice would be hard pressed to find ANYONE who would sit in court and testify that it should be considered a normal standard of care to ignore the VIP inspection.

Aside from the legal issues, the VIP is a good idea. Not because scuba stores are getting rich doing them.....they do profit from the service but they aren't getting rich. It is a good idea because of the LARGE VARIETY of non-conforming things found during the inspection. Not a SINGLE MONTH GOES BY that we don't find one or more cylinders with foreign objects, or bugs, or compressor oil, or severe rust or oxidation, or mold, or broken o-rings, or some other thing that should not wait for the next hydro inspection. Not everything is a scam....some things have a necessary purpose, even though they are not mandated by the law. Not every service for which there is a charge is done purely to enrich the one doing the charging.

Anyway, just my opinion.

Phil Ellis

 

[Bowtie22]

I know that most reputable attorneys won't even entertain a case if they don't think that they can win the case because most don't get paid enough if they don't win.

IMO I am starting to have my own thoughts…..if conducting VIP's was such a high risk business that most LDS's would not do them. At least around here most of the LDS don't conduct enough business to afford a high priced insurance or be able to (for lack of better terms) "hang it out there" for some freak incident of a tank having a catastrophic failure causing injury to someone.

I guess with anything though people love to point fingers and play the blame game.

On another note..........

Don't get me wrong here.... I think that VIP's are important for many reasons, mainly because I don't want to be sucking down some air in a corroded tank or something like that, but I really feel that the most important test is the Hydro every 5yrs. I think that a VIP is really just more revenue for LDS. I don't blame them but I think that just about anyone with a bit of common sense can pull a tank valve on a tank and inspect it for anomalies and do a fairly good job if they have a basic understanding of the concept. (just about because anyone because I have learned that common sense isn't so common ) Correct me if I am wrong for thinking this way....

 

[PhilEllis]

I don't think I said it was such a "high risk business". I said it is the standard level of care for a professional scuba store and is a widely accepted as the normal standard of care in the scuba industry.

I also believe that anyone who has the skill and ability to properly perform visual inspections can do so. Doing it as a professional, as a paid service in a professional dive store brings with it the normal exposure to liability that we might expect in a society and a legal system that allows anyone file a lawsuit. For this, we have insurance.

If you are going to a professional dive store that doesn't have that "fancy insurance" as you call it, they are running naked and could well go through a life-ruining experience if things don't go as planned.

Phil Ellis

 

[Bowtie22]

Sorry, PhilEllis, I posted before I read your last post.... but you answered a few of my concerns and thought with it.....

 

[Hoosier]

There is a LOT of argument about the fact that the LAW doesn't require the VIP performed by professional scuba stores. I honestly don't think it matters. The annual VIP inspection has been around in the scuba industry for years and years. It is nearly impossible to find a professional scuba store that will fill a cylinder without an up-to-date VIP inspection. Why? Because it has become INDUSTRY STANDARD. In a court of law, should an accident occur, the law would deem a proper VIP inspection to be the STANDARD OF CARE that a normal professional would use to ensure the safe use of a scuba cylinder for scuba diving. An attorney defending a professional scuba store who ignored this long-standing, widely accepted, agency-endorsed standard practice would be hard pressed to find ANYONE who would sit in court and testify that it should be considered a normal standard of care to ignore the VIP inspection.


Phil Ellis

Like you said, it is a highly debatable matter. And, we never know how an industry standard is favored in the court.. Truly.

No matter what is said, it is an industry standard. That is, there is no compulsory clauses BY LAW. A Law is law in the court, nothing more and less.

For example, LEGALLY I CAN skip my annual VIP, but NOT HYDRO. I can't even move the non-hydroed tanks on the public road, it is ILLEGAL.

This is a big difference between Industry standard and Govt LAW.

Another example, even though a LDS's monkey used to do a VIP without an inspector certificate, any LDS has a right to deny and reject an independent VIP sticker. PSI headquarter can't help you on this matter, either. How and Why? Simple, it is an industry standard.


In the same context, any lawyers can make any excuse on the industry standards. Even in the market there are two agencies that have a different standard, such as PSI and TDI.


My comment is limited in an annual VIP. I have no idea what kind of license and standard are used for 5th year VIP at the hydro facility.

Just my 2 bar.

Note: As a PSI inspector, I totally agree that VIP is worth, specially if your air source is dependent on many different sources.

 

[Nemrod]

Tanks rarely burst or explode, it is not as if they are just exploding willy nilly all over the place. There have been a relative handful over decades and thousands upon thousands of fills. If you start a buisness on the side perhaps look into forming an LLC. I think you are being overly cautious.

I make my own VIP stickers and put them on my own tanks. Getting a VIP has turned into such a circus as of recent I just decided to opt out of that game.

N

 

[pescador775]

For example, LEGALLY I CAN skip my annual VIP, but NOT HYDRO. I can't even move the non-hydroed tanks on the public road, it is ILLEGAL.

The federal law is often misunderstood to be as implied here. I say "implied" because I don't know what you mean by using the first person, whether the transportation restrictions apply to just you, others like you or to everybody.

The federal law applies particularly to interstate transportation by "common carrier" (commercial vehicle). State laws vary but are similar in intent. This distinction, between individuals and commercial operations, stems from the nature of the American consitutional system which emphasizes individual rights and does not regulate virtually every action by a person as, for example, applied in some European countries and Australia. I can't speak to Russia or Asian countries due to lack of knowledge. However, the Russian dictatorship is highly bureaucratic so I'm guessing that laws are on the books but unevenly applied. As to the EOI inspections and general activities and deportment of particular divers in the USA, the US govt stays clear except where the US code and/or state codes such as antiquities laws, alcohol abuse or fish and game laws, or the rules of navigation apply.

 

[Hoosier]

The federal law is often misunderstood to be as implied here. I say "implied" because I don't know what you mean by using the first person, whether the transportation restrictions apply to just you, others like you or to everybody.
.

To every individual.


The federal law is prior to an individual right in this case.

You can move the tanks anywhere in your back yard, but LEGALLY (LITERALLY) can't hit a public road. The same logic applies to your car. You can drive your car in your back yard without a registration, but NOT on the public road. That is, the federal doesn't care if you are exploded with the tank in your back yard or not, just NOT in the public property.